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Re: [Amps] Transformer question

To: "'Gary Schafer'" <>,"'Tom W8JI'" <>,"'Jim Brown'" <>,"'Amps Amps'" <>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Transformer question
From: "Robert Bonner" <>
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:49:49 -0500
List-post: <>
Something to think about.  Like I said a few posts ago, the NEC is updated
every few years.  They come up with new "Ideas" and ram them down our

The Ovens, ranges, dryers whatever are old installations and are perfectly
legal as they were installed under the old code.  In 1986 I walked into a
120V 30 Amp 3 story house.  Funniest thing I ever saw.  It was one of the
very last 120V services in Minneapolis.  You stood in the bathtub to change
fuses.  I felt really safe.
Perfectly legal and up to code until we pulled out a screwdriver and then
the house was one click from condemned until we finished our work.  The
inspector thanked us an told us with a sigh of relief that we upgraded that
place.  It wasn't a dump or anything, but neglected electrically forever.

KNOB AND TUBE wiring is completely legal and fully accepted under the NEC as
it was installed before updated rulings etc.  My farmhouse in SD had a mix
of different wiring.  Pipe, romex, Greenfield and Knob and tube.  The one
thing the contractor I worked for told me about K&T, you'll never overheat
that stuff!  HA.

I used to go into MSP commercial properties.  (I've said this before) with
switch gear all in K&T great big knife switches I never felt safe in those
power rooms.

Anyway, when you start replacing stuff around your house several things
happen.  We already have mentioned the code has changed.  In just about
EVERY community on the planet requires a permit and an electrical
inspection.  Those of you doing it without a permit...  I'm one of those
guys most of the time these days will never get an inspection...  NOW>>>

In my community there is an ordinance that states if you update the
electrical service EVERY item in the home must also be brought up to current
code.  In other words they will be expecting to see Arc Fault breakers,
GFI's where needed...  Water meters jumpered, two ground rods on services,
you name it.

So some day you may also need to pay the piper and actually need to meet
code on everything if your city is run by NAZIS like mine is.

And yeah my oven is a three wire setup.  The lightbulb (which is burnt out)
is 120V.  But we are planning to update the kitchen soon anyway and use gas,
hahahaha.  Mine is even BX with the flex and a little aluminum trailer
inside...  Talk about cheesy.  Anyway, my point is.  Old wiring is OK...
When you replace the stove whatever you should be rewiring.  The reason they
have included jumpers to ground the neutral is a cheater for homeowners.
Just because it isn't code or they provide the cheat doesn't make it right.

A few years ago a guy could buy an adapter to do just about anything.  Last
weekend I tried to buy a 20 amp outlet to 15 amp plug convertor.  NOPE
nobody has them anymore, they aren't code...

BUT HEY, I have a 50AMP 240V RV that you can parallel the circuits for
120V... Oh that takes a 30A 120V adaptor plug...  OH hey and there's a 30Amp
adaptor to get you down to a 15A 120V plug and I sure as heck have one of
them too.

SO I can in a tight spot plug my 240V 50A (120v 100A) RV into a 15 amp 120V
socket if I need to..  HAHAHAHA

SO...  What did I do?  I needed to plug in a 20A computer dual supply to a
15 amp socket on my two 3000W UPS's (there's 8 15 amp outlets on the back of
each one, not 20 amp...  SO instead of rewiring my UPS's I made two
adaptors, cost me about $50.  Too bad 20A isn't an RV setup or there'd be an
adaptor for it.

My guess is 5 years from now and you wont be able to buy an RV adaptor


-----Original Message-----
From: [] On
Behalf Of Gary Schafer
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:39 PM
To: 'Tom W8JI'; 'Jim Brown'; 'Amps Amps'
Subject: Re: [Amps] Transformer question

I just bought one of those 50A sockets for my welder last year from home
depot. Sold as a range outlet. They still had the 3 wire cords for the range
there too. It is my understanding that the 3 wire circuit is still ok to use
for existing house wiring as there are still a lot of those circuits out
there but any new wiring must be 4 wire.

I just put in a new electric stove and a new 4 wire circuit for it. The new
stove has a jumper strap at its cord connection that is to be installed if
you use a 3 wire cord and not used for a 4 wire cord. The jumper straps
neutral and ground together for a 3 wire circuit.

The older stoves and dryers had only a 3 wire circuit in them and it was
intended that the neutral/ground be common.
The NEC had exceptions for these two appliances to their "separate ground
and neutral rule". But the stove or dryer using this exception had to be a
dedicated line back to the fuse box. Nothing else on that circuit but that
one appliance.

Those are the only two appliances that I can think of that you could use a
common ground/neutral on for 120/240 service. Everything else had to have
the ground and neutral separate. Now the new rules for new wiring must not
share ground/neutral on anything.

However the old welder that I have, 3 wire circuit, does have a 120 outlet
on it so for that it does use the ground as the neutral. It is from the late
50's early 60's. I don't know if it was compliant then or not.

Gary  K4FMX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [] On
> Behalf Of Tom W8JI
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:12 PM
> To: Jim Brown; Amps Amps
> Subject: Re: [Amps] Transformer question
> > However -- I have heard that there used to be some
> > exception for
> > certain heavy appliances. If that execption exists,
> > perhaps
> > someone could cite the specific paragraph.
> Jim,
> It's my understanding the exposed case of large appliances
> was never supposed to be tied to the neutral, but it became
> so commonly misused it appeared many places.
> They solved that problem in the mid-90's by mandating a four
> wire plug for anything that uses 120/240. As a matter of
> fact I tried to buy a 50A socket formerly common for
> electric ranges at Lowes or Home Depot (for a welder) a
> couple years ago and they told me I could no longer buy a
> three pole 50A socket.
> The important thing to remember for this discussion is while
> some old ranges used 120/240 and may have tied the case to
> the neutral, small appliances and devices using 15-30A plugs
> never tied the neutral to the case. The is absolutely no
> reason at all to do that in a Ham amplifier, and very few
> commercial amps I've seen have ever done that.
> 73 Tom
> _______________________________________________
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