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Re: [Amps] Transformer question

To: <>, "'Amps Amps'" <>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Transformer question
From: "jeremy-ca" <>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:07:59 -0400
List-post: <>
I preserved the knob and tube (non functional) in the basement of the 
original part of my present home; that section was built in 1836. I dont 
even know the name of some of the stuff I pulled out of the walls and 
ceilings during the rebuild.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Bonner" <>
To: "'Gary Schafer'" <>; "'Tom W8JI'" 
<>; "'Jim Brown'" <>; "'Amps Amps'" 
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] Transformer question

> Something to think about.  Like I said a few posts ago, the NEC is updated
> every few years.  They come up with new "Ideas" and ram them down our
> throats.
> The Ovens, ranges, dryers whatever are old installations and are perfectly
> legal as they were installed under the old code.  In 1986 I walked into a
> 120V 30 Amp 3 story house.  Funniest thing I ever saw.  It was one of the
> very last 120V services in Minneapolis.  You stood in the bathtub to 
> change
> fuses.  I felt really safe.
> Perfectly legal and up to code until we pulled out a screwdriver and then
> the house was one click from condemned until we finished our work.  The
> inspector thanked us an told us with a sigh of relief that we upgraded 
> that
> place.  It wasn't a dump or anything, but neglected electrically forever.
> KNOB AND TUBE wiring is completely legal and fully accepted under the NEC 
> as
> it was installed before updated rulings etc.  My farmhouse in SD had a mix
> of different wiring.  Pipe, romex, Greenfield and Knob and tube.  The one
> thing the contractor I worked for told me about K&T, you'll never overheat
> that stuff!  HA.
> I used to go into MSP commercial properties.  (I've said this before) with
> switch gear all in K&T great big knife switches I never felt safe in those
> power rooms.
> Anyway, when you start replacing stuff around your house several things
> happen.  We already have mentioned the code has changed.  In just about
> EVERY community on the planet requires a permit and an electrical
> inspection.  Those of you doing it without a permit...  I'm one of those
> guys most of the time these days will never get an inspection...  NOW>>>
> In my community there is an ordinance that states if you update the
> electrical service EVERY item in the home must also be brought up to 
> current
> code.  In other words they will be expecting to see Arc Fault breakers,
> GFI's where needed...  Water meters jumpered, two ground rods on services,
> you name it.
> So some day you may also need to pay the piper and actually need to meet
> code on everything if your city is run by NAZIS like mine is.
> And yeah my oven is a three wire setup.  The lightbulb (which is burnt 
> out)
> is 120V.  But we are planning to update the kitchen soon anyway and use 
> gas,
> hahahaha.  Mine is even BX with the flex and a little aluminum trailer
> inside...  Talk about cheesy.  Anyway, my point is.  Old wiring is OK...
> When you replace the stove whatever you should be rewiring.  The reason 
> they
> have included jumpers to ground the neutral is a cheater for homeowners.
> Just because it isn't code or they provide the cheat doesn't make it 
> right.
> A few years ago a guy could buy an adapter to do just about anything. 
> Last
> weekend I tried to buy a 20 amp outlet to 15 amp plug convertor.  NOPE
> nobody has them anymore, they aren't code...
> BUT HEY, I have a 50AMP 240V RV that you can parallel the circuits for
> 120V... Oh that takes a 30A 120V adaptor plug...  OH hey and there's a 
> 30Amp
> adaptor to get you down to a 15A 120V plug and I sure as heck have one of
> them too.
> SO I can in a tight spot plug my 240V 50A (120v 100A) RV into a 15 amp 
> 120V
> socket if I need to..  HAHAHAHA
> SO...  What did I do?  I needed to plug in a 20A computer dual supply to a
> 15 amp socket on my two 3000W UPS's (there's 8 15 amp outlets on the back 
> of
> each one, not 20 amp...  SO instead of rewiring my UPS's I made two
> adaptors, cost me about $50.  Too bad 20A isn't an RV setup or there'd be 
> an
> adaptor for it.
> My guess is 5 years from now and you wont be able to buy an RV adaptor
> either.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [] On
> Behalf Of Gary Schafer
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:39 PM
> To: 'Tom W8JI'; 'Jim Brown'; 'Amps Amps'
> Subject: Re: [Amps] Transformer question
> I just bought one of those 50A sockets for my welder last year from home
> depot. Sold as a range outlet. They still had the 3 wire cords for the 
> range
> there too. It is my understanding that the 3 wire circuit is still ok to 
> use
> for existing house wiring as there are still a lot of those circuits out
> there but any new wiring must be 4 wire.
> I just put in a new electric stove and a new 4 wire circuit for it. The 
> new
> stove has a jumper strap at its cord connection that is to be installed if
> you use a 3 wire cord and not used for a 4 wire cord. The jumper straps
> neutral and ground together for a 3 wire circuit.
> The older stoves and dryers had only a 3 wire circuit in them and it was
> intended that the neutral/ground be common.
> The NEC had exceptions for these two appliances to their "separate ground
> and neutral rule". But the stove or dryer using this exception had to be a
> dedicated line back to the fuse box. Nothing else on that circuit but that
> one appliance.
> Those are the only two appliances that I can think of that you could use a
> common ground/neutral on for 120/240 service. Everything else had to have
> the ground and neutral separate. Now the new rules for new wiring must not
> share ground/neutral on anything.
> However the old welder that I have, 3 wire circuit, does have a 120 outlet
> on it so for that it does use the ground as the neutral. It is from the 
> late
> 50's early 60's. I don't know if it was compliant then or not.
> 73
> Gary  K4FMX
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [] On
>> Behalf Of Tom W8JI
>> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:12 PM
>> To: Jim Brown; Amps Amps
>> Subject: Re: [Amps] Transformer question
>> > However -- I have heard that there used to be some
>> > exception for
>> > certain heavy appliances. If that execption exists,
>> > perhaps
>> > someone could cite the specific paragraph.
>> Jim,
>> It's my understanding the exposed case of large appliances
>> was never supposed to be tied to the neutral, but it became
>> so commonly misused it appeared many places.
>> They solved that problem in the mid-90's by mandating a four
>> wire plug for anything that uses 120/240. As a matter of
>> fact I tried to buy a 50A socket formerly common for
>> electric ranges at Lowes or Home Depot (for a welder) a
>> couple years ago and they told me I could no longer buy a
>> three pole 50A socket.
>> The important thing to remember for this discussion is while
>> some old ranges used 120/240 and may have tied the case to
>> the neutral, small appliances and devices using 15-30A plugs
>> never tied the neutral to the case. The is absolutely no
>> reason at all to do that in a Ham amplifier, and very few
>> commercial amps I've seen have ever done that.
>> 73 Tom
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