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Re: [CQ-Contest] Coax Stubs for SO2R

To: k9yc@arrl.net
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Coax Stubs for SO2R
From: Rudy Bakalov via CQ-Contest <cq-contest@contesting.com>
Reply-to: Rudy Bakalov <r_bakalov@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 12:59:34 -0400
List-post: <cq-contest@contesting.com">mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com>
Looking at W2VJN's book, page 28 caught my attention. Specifically, the use of 
type 3 stubs, where we use two 1/8th wave stubs in parallel instead of a single 
1/4. Such stubs have higher attenuation at the expense of twice the loss (0.08 
db vs 0.15 db).

Other than being twice the work, is there a downside to using 2 X 1/8 instead 
of 1 X 1/4 stubs?

Rudy N2WQ

Sent using a tiny keyboard.  Please excuse brevity, typos, or inappropriate 
autocorrect.


> On Jul 26, 2016, at 7:26 PM, Jim Brown <k9yc@audiosystemsgroup.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue,7/26/2016 3:17 PM, Steve NR4M wrote:
>> Jim,
>> 
>> Been following this thread since it started (this time) several days ago.  I 
>> have lots of interest in it as I have a multi multi station here in VA.
>> I have built coaxial stubs in the past using my AIM 4170, FSJ4 heliax, and 
>> K2TR's data as a good place to start.  I think after screwing with them for 
>> years, I've gotten pretty good at putting the nulls where I want them.  And, 
>> they seem to work, but no real data on how well they work.  My 40m 3rd 
>> harmonic on 15 is about S-5 and I can get withing a couple of KC, or so.  
>> It's just not much of a problem any longer.
>> 
>> Been quite interested in your suggestions on how to place them for maximum 
>> attenuation of the undesired RF.  I, like many, I guess, have installed them 
>> at the output of the amplifier, because that would be a 50 ohm point in a 
>> properly tuned amp.  But, now I see that it's more important to know what 
>> the impedance of the harmonics is on your band of choice.
> 
> Yes. This was an important realization that George, W2VJN brought to our 
> attention with his NCJ piece a couple of years ago. Up to then, I don't think 
> any of us had given it any thought.  I had not.
> 
>> 
>> What got me up and moving on this is your comment in a previous post today 
>> about it being the second harmonic that's important.  I have been building 
>> stubs, per N2TR, that covered multiple bands, without really focusing on a 
>> particular stations 2nd harmonic.
> 
> Well, the focus on second harmonic as opposed to others is that it tends to 
> be stronger than higher order harmonics, but the same logic certainly 
> applies. Jeff, AC0C said it perfectly -- he looks at isolation using his VNA, 
> pays attention to what he hears on the air in SO2R mode, and works on those 
> things one at a time.
> 
>> 
>> I pulled the coax off the stub set on the back of my 20 meter amp, connected 
>> a Rig Exper AA54, and started looking up my coax toward the antenna.
>> On 10 meters, I saw R101 -J14.6 and on 15 (for the heck of it) I saw R112 
>> j-36.
>> 
>> Following your instructions in your pdf on locating the stubs, I am just 
>> about where I need to be.  If I added .44 feet of Coax, it would be right on 
>> the voltage peak.
> 
> If it's that close to the voltage peak, there's no need to move it.
> 
>> 
>> Do these numbers above look as they should?  I was expecting higher R.
> 
> What kind of antenna?  Is it a tribander, or a monobander? Monoband antennas 
> tend to look like pretty high Z at the second harmonic at their feedpoint 
> (because it's a full wave dipole at the harmonic), so should be pretty high 
> VSWR. By contrast, a tribander should be fairly close to resonance on all 
> three bands.
> 
> If the antenna is resonant on the harmonic, placement of the stub with 
> respect to the antenna doesn't matter, but placement with respect to the 
> amplifier does.
> 
> Another important point about "higher R" from an analyzer measurement. 
> Virtually all of the analzyers we use (including the best VNAs) make 
> "reflection-based" measurements using S11, and derive impedance from that 
> data. The math involves the difference of two numbers that are relatively 
> close in size, so a small error in the measurement can result in a large 
> error in the computed Z. A good rule of thumb is that reflection-based 
> measurements have fair accuracy if the unknown is within a 1:5 or 5:1 ratio 
> of the system impedance, and they become increasingly inaccurate as that 
> ratio gets larger. In other words, with our 50 ohm analyzers, Z is reasonably 
> good for ACTUAL values between about 10 ohms and 250 ohms.
> 
> There's also the issues of stray capacity, and of calibration  of the 
> instrument. Many years ago, W8JI published calibration instructions for the 
> popular MFJ-259 and its descendants. I don't know if there are comparable 
> procedures for your analyzer. The effect of stray C is to move resonant 
> impedance peaks down in frequency.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
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