Don says,
"The common practice, many years ago, was the 'daisy-chain' the ground
from box to box to box, etc ... and then ONE wire went to ground.
This is a problem waiting to happen.
Tie EACH of the 'boxes' in the shack to the SPG outside with SEPARATE
ground wires. Thus, the SPG you have serves its purpose. "
In a typical SO2R station, that would be 17-20 different wires going to the
ground rod. I would like to know how many on this reflector have that
amount? Half that amount?
This SPG discussion is giving me a headache! HI!
For some , the cost of an ideal ground system is more than the equipment is
worth. As long as my $4,000 Alpha amp is safe, I'll take my chances with
the MP and Pro II. Insurance premiums and deductibles are less expensive,
for the most part.
73,
Tom W8JWN
----- Original Message -----
From: <towertalk-request@contesting.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 11:21 AM
Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 15
> Send TowerTalk mailing list submissions to
> towertalk@contesting.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> towertalk-request@contesting.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TowerTalk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Need sources of rope and fiberglass (Charles Harpole)
> 2. Re: FOLLOWUP ON MY GROUND PROB; LEMS IN HOUSE AND SHACK
> (Jim Brown)
> 3. Re: Need sources of rope and fiberglass (Mark Robinson)
> 4. Re: Fwd: shack wiring (Don Tucker)
> 5. Re: Need sources of rope and fiberglass (W5CPT Clint)
> 6. A different question (I think) on SPG (Gary E. Jones)
> 7. Re: A different question (I think) on SPG (n8de@thepoint.net)
> 8. Re: A different question (I think) on SPG (Kipton Moravec)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 14:38:28 +0000
> From: Charles Harpole <k4vud@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Need sources of rope and fiberglass
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>, Florida ContestGroup <fcg@kkn.net>,
> <cubex@cubex.com>
> Message-ID: <COL107-W59ED503B96BC66E82AA69BF7AF0@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Hope someone can refer me to a source for
>
> ---very light weight, very strong (500 lbs. pull), non absorbent, sun
> resistant line/string/rope to use to internally guy a two element quad.
>
> -- light weight 8 foot fiberglass rod or tube, at least 1 and half inch
> diameter.
>
>
> Well, my quad broke today in a gale. The wind estimater says speed was 50
> to 56 mph based on small tree blown over, twigs and limbs down, and so on.
> I am impressed that the grass in the lots beside and behind me ... grass
> about 2 ft tall, was blown completely flat, so he wind at actual ground
> level was bad, too. Standard factory Cubex with factory stiffner... 2 el
> full size 40m, 2el on 30, and 3 el on other two WARC bands. Really worked
> nice!
>
> I made the mistake of not heading my quad West where the wind always comes
> from... I think because it hit it on an angle, one of the top two
> spreaders broke at about the half way point and all the wires of the
> driven element are drooping over the mess that is left. The reflector,
> lacking he added load of the driven coax attached, survived. I think the
> driven array also rotated on the boom and the whole thing could have been
> pushed back on the mast, it appears.
>
> I had plans already of putting in 8ft extensions on the ends of the boom
> and tying the whole thing into a fully guyed internally. I do not know
> how I can get another fiberglass spreader shipped here, it is very long,
> and I have only one fiberglass extension rod to do the strengthening so
> that is another part to find.
>
> If you have suggestions on a very light very strong, sun resistant, non
> absorbing string, line, rope.... please let me know. de HS0ZCW
>
> Charly
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 08:36:59 -0700
> From: "Jim Brown" <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] FOLLOWUP ON MY GROUND PROB; LEMS IN HOUSE
> AND SHACK
> To: "TowerTalk@contesting.com" <TowerTalk@contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <20100804153700.692BB58F55@gw1.nlenet.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Wed, 04 Aug 2010 02:46:00 -0500, Fred wrote:
>
>>Here is how I ended up doing it all in tyhe end now.
>
> I don't see where you have bonded the new ground rods to the other ground
> rods. This is CRITICAL for lightning safety, and it is required by all
> electrical codes, including the National Elecrical Code.
>
> Repeat after me, and write 100 times on the blackboard.
>
> You can have as many grounds as you like, but they MUST be bonded
> together.
> You can have as many grounds as you like, but they MUST be bonded
> together.
> You can have as many grounds as you like, but they MUST be bonded
> together.
> You can have as many grounds as you like, but they MUST be bonded
> together.
> You can have as many grounds as you like, but they MUST be bonded
> together.
> You can have as many grounds as you like, but they MUST be bonded
> together.
> You can have as many grounds as you like, but they MUST be bonded
> together.
> You can have as many grounds as you like, but they MUST be bonded
> together.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 11:39:08 -0400
> From: "Mark Robinson" <markrob@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Need sources of rope and fiberglass
> To: "Charles Harpole" <k4vud@hotmail.com>, <towertalk@contesting.com>,
> "Florida ContestGroup" <fcg@kkn.net>, <cubex@cubex.com>
> Message-ID: <00b001cb33eb$2e8b3fc0$6600a8c0@hplaptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Take a look at this
>
> http://www.synthetictextilesinc.com/supportham.html
>
>
>
> Mark N1UK
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Harpole" <k4vud@hotmail.com>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>; "Florida ContestGroup" <fcg@kkn.net>;
> <cubex@cubex.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, 04 August, 2010 10:38 AM
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Need sources of rope and fiberglass
>
>
>>
>> Hope someone can refer me to a source for
>>
>> ---very light weight, very strong (500 lbs. pull), non absorbent, sun
>> resistant line/string/rope to use to internally guy a two element quad.
>>
>> -- light weight 8 foot fiberglass rod or tube, at least 1 and half inch
>> diameter.
>>
>>
>> Well, my quad broke today in a gale. The wind estimater says speed was
>> 50
>> to 56 mph based on small tree blown over, twigs and limbs down, and so
>> on.
>> I am impressed that the grass in the lots beside and behind me ... grass
>> about 2 ft tall, was blown completely flat, so he wind at actual ground
>> level was bad, too. Standard factory Cubex with factory stiffner... 2 el
>> full size 40m, 2el on 30, and 3 el on other two WARC bands. Really
>> worked
>> nice!
>>
>> I made the mistake of not heading my quad West where the wind always
>> comes
>> from... I think because it hit it on an angle, one of the top two
>> spreaders broke at about the half way point and all the wires of the
>> driven element are drooping over the mess that is left. The reflector,
>> lacking he added load of the driven coax attached, survived. I think the
>> driven array also rotated on the boom and the whole thing could have been
>> pushed back on the mast, it appears.
>>
>> I had plans already of putting in 8ft extensions on the ends of the boom
>> and tying the whole thing into a fully guyed internally. I do not know
>> how I can get another fiberglass spreader shipped here, it is very long,
>> and I have only one fiberglass extension rod to do the strengthening so
>> that is another part to find.
>>
>> If you have suggestions on a very light very strong, sun resistant, non
>> absorbing string, line, rope.... please let me know. de HS0ZCW
>>
>> Charly
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:44:36 -0700
> From: "Don Tucker" <w7wll@arrl.net>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: shack wiring
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <772E6A8FFFCD4D13A966D2D0EDA04061@n4j8v5>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Just what should the wire size be from the pole xmfr to the house and into
> the 200A panel?
>
> Don W7WLL
>
> ## ha ha. I had the power co guy's out here a few months back..and asked
> them
> the same thing. Their answer was... "go ahead and burn it right off the
> pole" .
> Here in NA, we are being sold a bill of goods. Everyone has '200 A'
> service...
> but the drop wire into each home is just 1-0 stranded AL.... which then
> gets
> spliced into 3-000 stranded CU. .. then into the meter base [which is the
> most
> mickey mouse, piss poor design you ever saw, regardless of who makes em]
> ..
> then into main 200A panel.. which imo, they all use undersize buss bars.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:45:21 -0500
> From: "W5CPT Clint" <w5cpt@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Need sources of rope and fiberglass
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <CF9746649F7A4695B7D304F5027E0E55@ownerPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> I don't know about the fiberglass but I would use Phillystran HPTG1200I
> for
> the the Quad stays. A bit pricey at $0.49 @ foot and $4 per end, but you
> only have to buy it once. I had an antenna that would either stretch or
> break the boom support rope in the slightest wind (lots of sun
> degradation -
> Texas). Replaced with the Phillystran and never worried about it again.
> No
> stretch, no breakage & no worries.
>
> Clint - W5CPT - West Kentucky
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Charles Harpole" <k4vud@hotmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:38 AM
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>; "Florida ContestGroup" <fcg@kkn.net>;
> <cubex@cubex.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Need sources of rope and fiberglass
>
>>
>> Hope someone can refer me to a source for
>>
>> ---very light weight, very strong (500 lbs. pull), non absorbent, sun
>> resistant line/string/rope to use to internally guy a two element quad.
>>
>> -- light weight 8 foot fiberglass rod or tube, at least 1 and half inch
>> diameter.
>>
>>
>> Well, my quad broke today in a gale. The wind estimater says speed was
>> 50
>> to 56 mph based on small tree blown over, twigs and limbs down, and so
>> on.
>> I am impressed that the grass in the lots beside and behind me ... grass
>> about 2 ft tall, was blown completely flat, so he wind at actual ground
>> level was bad, too. Standard factory Cubex with factory stiffner... 2 el
>> full size 40m, 2el on 30, and 3 el on other two WARC bands. Really
>> worked
>> nice!
>>
>> I made the mistake of not heading my quad West where the wind always
>> comes
>> from... I think because it hit it on an angle, one of the top two
>> spreaders broke at about the half way point and all the wires of the
>> driven element are drooping over the mess that is left. The reflector,
>> lacking he added load of the driven coax attached, survived. I think the
>> driven array also rotated on the boom and the whole thing could have been
>> pushed back on the mast, it appears.
>>
>> I had plans already of putting in 8ft extensions on the ends of the boom
>> and tying the whole thing into a fully guyed internally. I do not know
>> how I can get another fiberglass spreader shipped here, it is very long,
>> and I have only one fiberglass extension rod to do the strengthening so
>> that is another part to find.
>>
>> If you have suggestions on a very light very strong, sun resistant, non
>> absorbing string, line, rope.... please let me know. de HS0ZCW
>>
>> Charly
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:51:37 -0500
> From: "Gary E. Jones" <garyejones@cmaaccess.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] A different question (I think) on SPG
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <023901cb33ec$ecacff10$c606fd30$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I have read the threads on SPG over the years, but I think I don't really
> understand a couple of concepts that are fundamental. Maybe someone can
> help.
>
>
>
> I live in a 4000 square foot ranch house which is in the shape of a "U"
> with
> sleeping areas on one end of one leg of the U, and Garage/laundry/den on
> the
> other leg of the U, and the traditional living areas in the center of the
> U.
> The house has two 200A 240 volt distribution panels as the house was all
> electric initially. The phone and power services all come into the house
> on
> the garage end of one leg of the U. The shack is one of the bedrooms on
> the
> other leg of the U.
>
>
>
> Further, the house is 500' from the two 90' crank up towers, each with two
> yagis stacked on them. The towers are grounded through three ground rods
> per
> tower. Further, the feedlines for the yagis (buryflex) enter into
> weatherproof boxes mounted on 4x4 weather resistant posts. The boxes have
> remote coax switches in them to switch the various yagis on each tower.
> The
> remote switches are grounded and I will be separately grounding each piece
> of buryflex at the base of the towers. There is Heliax from the remote
> switches (500' for one tower and 600' for the other tower) to the house.
>
>
>
> Now, I assume there is no logic of trying to put the house and the two
> towers at the same common ground point and that the towers have to be
> separately grounded at their base (the way that I have it now). That means
> there is a 500 and 600 foot separation between the towers and the house.
> Further, the shack is on one side of the house and the common utility
> grounds are in the center of the house. I have a separate ground rod right
> outside the shack window, so it is not a SPG even for the house.
>
>
>
> Now, is the conventional wisdom that I have a problem?
>
>
>
> I can't see an easy or even possible solution. It seems to me that the
> towers have to be grounded separately, and short of running a ground strap
> a
> hundred feet and boring either under my slab or around my swimming pool,
> there is no easy way to even have a SPG for the house.
>
>
>
> One more thing, it has always seemed to me that at the exact instant that
> a
> tower or antenna gets hit with lightening, the tower ground is going to be
> many volts higher than a second ground 500' away as the charge dissipates
> into the tower "ground". That is going to put a very large voltage
> difference between the two and is my understanding of the whole logic of
> SPG. Am I correct or wrong in my assumptions? However, if they are all
> tied
> together, for that same fraction of a second, isn't everything "hot" (even
> the "ground") relative to any other ground that is separated from the
> common
> ground?
>
>
>
> Straighten out my thinking.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
>
> 73
>
>
>
> Gary W5FI
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 12:19:12 -0400
> From: n8de@thepoint.net
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] A different question (I think) on SPG
> To: "Gary E. Jones" <garyejones@cmaaccess.com>
> Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
> Message-ID: <20100804121912.9qlurf8woc40osk4@webmail.win.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
> format="flowed"
>
> Gary,
>
> Your thinking isn't 'crooked', so it doesn't need straightening.
>
> You are confused by the term SPG. It does NOT mean that EVERYTHING is
> tied to ONE POINT!
>
> The ground you have outside your shack is the SPG for your
> equipment/shack, provided all 'boxes' in the shack are tied to it and
> not simply to each other.
>
> The common practice, many years ago, was the 'daisy-chain' the ground
> from box to box to box, etc ... and then ONE wire went to ground.
> This is a problem waiting to happen.
>
> Tie EACH of the 'boxes' in the shack to the SPG outside with SEPARATE
> ground wires. Thus, the SPG you have serves its purpose.
>
> The grounds at each tower are great for dissipating the initial 'blow'
> if struck, but NOTHING will keep the 'strike current' from travelling
> from tower to shack.
>
> The idea is to MINIMIZE the potential damage.
>
> Good luck
> 73
> Don
> N8DE
>
>
> Quoting "Gary E. Jones" <garyejones@cmaaccess.com>:
>
>> I have read the threads on SPG over the years, but I think I don't really
>> understand a couple of concepts that are fundamental. Maybe someone can
>> help.
>>
>>
>>
>> I live in a 4000 square foot ranch house which is in the shape of a "U"
>> with
>> sleeping areas on one end of one leg of the U, and Garage/laundry/den on
>> the
>> other leg of the U, and the traditional living areas in the center of the
>> U.
>> The house has two 200A 240 volt distribution panels as the house was all
>> electric initially. The phone and power services all come into the house
>> on
>> the garage end of one leg of the U. The shack is one of the bedrooms on
>> the
>> other leg of the U.
>>
>>
>>
>> Further, the house is 500' from the two 90' crank up towers, each with
>> two
>> yagis stacked on them. The towers are grounded through three ground rods
>> per
>> tower. Further, the feedlines for the yagis (buryflex) enter into
>> weatherproof boxes mounted on 4x4 weather resistant posts. The boxes have
>> remote coax switches in them to switch the various yagis on each tower.
>> The
>> remote switches are grounded and I will be separately grounding each
>> piece
>> of buryflex at the base of the towers. There is Heliax from the remote
>> switches (500' for one tower and 600' for the other tower) to the house.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, I assume there is no logic of trying to put the house and the two
>> towers at the same common ground point and that the towers have to be
>> separately grounded at their base (the way that I have it now). That
>> means
>> there is a 500 and 600 foot separation between the towers and the house.
>> Further, the shack is on one side of the house and the common utility
>> grounds are in the center of the house. I have a separate ground rod
>> right
>> outside the shack window, so it is not a SPG even for the house.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, is the conventional wisdom that I have a problem?
>>
>>
>>
>> I can't see an easy or even possible solution. It seems to me that the
>> towers have to be grounded separately, and short of running a ground
>> strap a
>> hundred feet and boring either under my slab or around my swimming pool,
>> there is no easy way to even have a SPG for the house.
>>
>>
>>
>> One more thing, it has always seemed to me that at the exact instant that
>> a
>> tower or antenna gets hit with lightening, the tower ground is going to
>> be
>> many volts higher than a second ground 500' away as the charge dissipates
>> into the tower "ground". That is going to put a very large voltage
>> difference between the two and is my understanding of the whole logic of
>> SPG. Am I correct or wrong in my assumptions? However, if they are all
>> tied
>> together, for that same fraction of a second, isn't everything "hot"
>> (even
>> the "ground") relative to any other ground that is separated from the
>> common
>> ground?
>>
>>
>>
>> Straighten out my thinking.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>>
>>
>> 73
>>
>>
>>
>> Gary W5FI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 11:21:03 -0500
> From: Kipton Moravec <kip@kdream.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] A different question (I think) on SPG
> To: "Gary E. Jones" <garyejones@cmaaccess.com>
> Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
> Message-ID: <1280938863.11389.56.camel@red>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Let me see if I can take a whack at this.
>
> On Wed, 2010-08-04 at 10:51 -0500, Gary E. Jones wrote:
>> I have read the threads on SPG over the years, but I think I don't really
>> understand a couple of concepts that are fundamental. Maybe someone can
>> help.
>>
>>
>>
>> I live in a 4000 square foot ranch house which is in the shape of a "U"
>> with
>> sleeping areas on one end of one leg of the U, and Garage/laundry/den on
>> the
>> other leg of the U, and the traditional living areas in the center of the
>> U.
>> The house has two 200A 240 volt distribution panels as the house was all
>> electric initially. The phone and power services all come into the house
>> on
>> the garage end of one leg of the U. The shack is one of the bedrooms on
>> the
>> other leg of the U.
>>
>
> Make sure phone and power grounds are tied together.
>
>>
>>
>> Further, the house is 500' from the two 90' crank up towers, each with
>> two
>> yagis stacked on them. The towers are grounded through three ground rods
>> per
>> tower. Further, the feedlines for the yagis (buryflex) enter into
>> weatherproof boxes mounted on 4x4 weather resistant posts. The boxes have
>> remote coax switches in them to switch the various yagis on each tower.
>> The
>> remote switches are grounded and I will be separately grounding each
>> piece
>> of buryflex at the base of the towers. There is Heliax from the remote
>> switches (500' for one tower and 600' for the other tower) to the house.
>
> When you get a lightning strike where do you want the power to go? Down
> your switch wires and coax or down a ground wire? (Ground Wire is the
> correct answer.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, I assume there is no logic of trying to put the house and the two
>> towers at the same common ground point and that the towers have to be
>> separately grounded at their base (the way that I have it now). That
>> means
>> there is a 500 and 600 foot separation between the towers and the house.
>> Further, the shack is on one side of the house and the common utility
>> grounds are in the center of the house. I have a separate ground rod
>> right
>> outside the shack window, so it is not a SPG even for the house.
>>
>
> O.K. where is the lightning going to go to find the lowest point ground?
>>From the tower to the coax. Some will be dumped at ground rod at the
> shack window. The rest will try to get to the ground at the house power
> service panel. Unfortunately your transceiver is in that path.
>>
>
>> Now, is the conventional wisdom that I have a problem?
>>
>
> You have a problem.
>
>>
>>
>> I can't see an easy or even possible solution. It seems to me that the
>> towers have to be grounded separately, and short of running a ground
>> strap a
>> hundred feet and boring either under my slab or around my swimming pool,
>> there is no easy way to even have a SPG for the house.
>>
>
> It sounds like that may be what you have to do. You have to tie all the
> grounds together. You want the house ground to move with the antenna
> ground and your entrance ground, so the power from the lightning goes
> through that ground wire and not through the house wires taking
> everything out with it.
>
>>
>>
>> One more thing, it has always seemed to me that at the exact instant that
>> a
>> tower or antenna gets hit with lightening, the tower ground is going to
>> be
>> many volts higher than a second ground 500' away as the charge dissipates
>> into the tower "ground". That is going to put a very large voltage
>> difference between the two and is my understanding of the whole logic of
>> SPG. Am I correct or wrong in my assumptions? However, if they are all
>> tied
>> together, for that same fraction of a second, isn't everything "hot"
>> (even
>> the "ground") relative to any other ground that is separated from the
>> common
>> ground?
>
> Precisely. That is the idea of what you are trying to do. As all grounds
> go up to a higher potential together, there is no potential across your
> equipment, and your equipment does not smoke.
>
> Think of a bird sitting on a power line. Even though there are hundreds
> of volts in the line the bird does not die, because the the power does
> not go through him, it is easier for the power to go through the wire he
> is sitting on.
>>
>>
>>
>> Straighten out my thinking.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>>
>>
>> 73
>>
>>
>>
>> Gary W5FI
>>
>>
> --
> Kipton Moravec AE5IB .- . ..... .. -...
>
> "Always do right; this will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
> --Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
> End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 15
> *****************************************
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