JC,
Totally agree! I have a HiZ 8 element (60' side for the 2X 4 element)
receive antenna ... when I model it there is BIG time interaction ... I can
move the 160 meter 'T' (what I'll be using here) 400' away and it still
interacts with the FB on 160! On this band it is indeed one SYSTEM.
excellent point.
Gary
K9RX
-----Original Message-----
From: JC
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 1:28 PM
To: k1fz@myfairpoint.net ; rxdesign@ssvecnet.com ; 'Topband'
Subject: RE: Topband: LU5OM shortened dipole (inverted vee) doing a nice job
Hi folks
Let me add some comments on Gary and Bruce savvy remarks.
The real question is "how many antennas you have for 160m?"
Using Manuel example, one inverted V and one vertical, for most of us, the
answer is two, why not, two feed lines that can be switched on the band
switch, feed with two separated coaxial lines. But what about that other 50
MHz Yagi with 120ft of cable, grounded only at the back of the radio, that
coaxial shield can be feed too if you use your tuner connected to the
shield, so you have another one, ok now it's 3.
Well the right answer is just one system, all these antennas are so close
that all interact witch it other as just one, if you feed the Inverted V ,
the inverted V will feed the tower and the 6m cable, and vice versa. The
vertical will never provide any low angle because the inverted V will shoot
it energy to the sky.
It is possible to model all these antennas on EZENEC and see the
integration. We know that very narrow antennas on VHF can be 5 wave long or
more, and the directors 5 wave far from the drive element does interact with
the system, on 160m one wave is 240ft (160m), it means that any wire or
structure inside that radio is part of your unique irradiation system.
My friend N8PR lives 3 miles from me , my TX tower is 116ft high and Peter's
TX tower is 116ft high, my signal used to be 10 db stronger than Pete and
both using the same power. We figure out the reason. Peter used to have a 4
square for 80m, on the same tower, 4 x 80m dipoles with a phasing box at the
center. Each dipole as a sloper had the lower part connected to the shield
of the dipole, the shilled of a 1/4 wave long cable connected to the phasing
box, all 4 of them, the 1/4 wave 80m dipole leg is actually 1/8 wave long on
160m, as the same for the feed line, and the same for the other feed line
connected on the same box,, when you add 1/8 on for the dipole leg, 1/8 for
one feed line and the 1/8 form the other feed line and the 1/8 from the
opposite dipole, the result is a 1/2 wave 160m element inside the 160m TX
vertical, even with all isolated the integration was so strong that Peter's
signal was 10m db bellow comparing with my TX antenna. The system was
irradiating UP!! All UP. The 1/2 wave element was working kind of a low
dipole.
We just disconnected the 80m, dipole cables from the phasing box and we
measured the signal again using RBN and voalahhh.!! Both signals become
exactly the same on Peter TX on 160m and my TX on 160m.
Does not matter where are you feeding our 160m antenna, the low SWR does not
tell you what you really have irradiating the energy. If you want to compare
two antennas at the same place , it is necessary to fiscally remove one when
testing the other. Most of the time it is impossible.
One solution is to detune the second antenna at least 20db, 30 db will be
better, but hard to achieve.
The same apply to RX antennas, when you have a RX antenna and an inverted V,
opening the inverted V, fiscally disconnecting the wires from the coaxial
cable at the center of the inverted V, the noise or interaction with you RX
antenna can drop 2 or more S unit.
Using google you can find videos from N8PR and PY2XB demonstrating the noise
reduction when the TX antenna is detuned (become non resonant on the band
you are listening)
The answer for my question is "just one" always one system.
Regards
JC
N4IS
-----Original Message-----
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
K1FZ-Bruce
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 11:01 AM
To: rxdesign@ssvecnet.com; Topband <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: LU5OM shortened dipole (inverted vee) doing a nice job
Good information Gary.
Lot of the fun of low band DXing comes from getting new countries, and
finding what antenna works best.
Yes, In the transition that takes place at gray line time, there is often
high angle taking place.
As in the past, building our own radio from scratch is not so easy, but
lets "have at it" with our antennas.
73
Bruce-K1FZ
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 08:21:27 -0400, "StellarCAT" wrote:
that’s a pretty ‘general’ statement! I had a 90’ high inverted L with the
bend supported by a tower – it was only about 50’ from a 143’ tower ... it
had ~30 100’ radials under it ... and I managed to work 100 countries in 89
consecutive days - from Arizona! That included some pretty rare/distant
entities. It worked VERY well as far as I was concerned.
I say this only so that someone reading your comment, having only this as an
option, isn’t dissuaded from trying it ... if it is what you have
available – go for it!
As for comparing a V at a low height (for most everyone it WILL be at a low
height) to a vertical and saying the V was better would, I believe, suggest
a feed system issue I’d think on the vertical. I’d think it would beat out a
horizontal, for long distance DX, most of the time – and substantially at
that. The vertical that is. OR the ground losses are really substantial. Or
both.
Just because DX is worked using a low horizontal antenna doesn’t imply
something is “good” ... it only implies it is sufficient. “Good”ness is very
subjective.
but as they, as we all say – do what you have to ...
Gary
K9RX
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