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Re: [Amps] PARALLEL CAPS IN OUTPUT

To: xxw0qe@comcast.net, amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] PARALLEL CAPS IN OUTPUT
From: TexasRF@aol.com
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 14:31:08 -0500 (EST)
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>
Larry, that doesn't seem intuitive at all. For example, if there was a  
short or open circuit load producing a swr of 1,000,000 then the square root of 
 1000 times 274v (1500w & 50R) = 274,000 volts.
 
There ain't that much voltage anywhere, is there?
 
The unmatched example seems ok, with p=very close to 1 added to 1 =   2X 
matched voltage.
 
73,
Gerald K5GW
 
 
 
In a message dated 12/4/2013 11:10:44 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
xxw0qe@comcast.net writes:

Not true  Peter,

Unmatched (assuming 50 ohm output Z in 50 ohm circuit) the max  possible 
voltage is (1+p) times the 1:1 SWR voltage.  The reflection  coefficient 
p = (SWR-1)/(SWR+1).

In a matched circuit (if the  matching has no loss) the maximum voltage 
possible is square root of the  SWR times the 1:1 SWR voltage.

Undergrad EE classes cover these topics  and programs such as LTSpice can 
show it as well.  Obviously the  maximum posible voltage may not be what 
you see depending on electrical  distance to the load and the loss in the 
transmission but the above  formulas bound the upper limit.

73,
Larry, W0QE

On 12/4/2013  11:49 AM, peter chadwick wrote:
> If one is to believe Philip H. Smith  in 'Electronic Applications of the 
Smith Chart', McGraw-Hill 1969, page 6, Fig  1.3, the maximum voltage 
appearing on a lossless transmission line with an SWR  of infinity is twice the 
voltage when matched.
>
> So a 1kV rating  is adequate.
>
> It makes sense when you think about it,  too.
>
> But of course, Smith might have got it  wrong.......
>
> 73
>
> Peter  G3RZP
>
>
>  ========================================
>   Message Received:  Dec 04 2013, 06:40 PM
>   From: "Bill Turner"  <dezrat1242@wildblue.net>
>   To: "Amps"  <amps@contesting.com>
>   Cc:
>    Subject: Re: [Amps] PARALLEL CAPS IN OUTPUT
>    
>   ORIGINAL MESSAGE:          (may  be snipped)
>   
>   On Wed, 4 Dec 2013  09:16:06 -0500 (EST), K5GW wrote:
>   
>    >
>   >The voltage rating is not the problem; after all  there is less than 
300v
>   >rms across a 50 ohm load with  1500 watts power.
>   
>    REPLY:
>   
>   Capacitors don't arc at the  RMS voltage. They arc at the peak of the RF
>   cycle. For  1500 watts into 50 ohms, the peak is about 387 VAC. And  
that's
>   with a 1:1 SWR.
>   
>   A high SWR can cause voltage nodes many times the normal voltage to  
appear
>   on the coax, and if the coax is just the wrong  length, one of those 
nodes
>   may appear right at your load  cap. Have you ever transmitted into the 
wrong
>    antenna?
>   
>   IMO, padder caps rated at 5  or 6 kV are NOT overkill.
>   
>   Once a  capacitor arcs, even if it survives, little blisters form at  
the
>   point of the arc and, due to corona effect, are prone  to arc again but 
at
>   even lower voltage. It is always best  to prevent the arc in the first 
place.
>   High voltage caps  are your friend.
>   
>   73, Bill  W6WRT
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