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Re: [CQ-Contest] Impact of FT* Modes on DXpeditions

To: cq-contest@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Impact of FT* Modes on DXpeditions
From: donovanf@starpower.net
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 17:04:41 -0400 (EDT)
List-post: <mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com>
Oliver, 


There are many, many things that were thought to kill ham radio, 
or your favorite ham radio niche. In no particular order and 
far from complete: 



Spark 
CW 
QRQ 
QSK 
AM 
Heising Modulation 
Controlled Carrier Modulation 
SSB 
FM 
RTTY 
Packet 
Amtor 
Pactor 
Winlink 
PSK31 
PSK63 
MSFK8 
MSFK16 
M-RTTY 
EME 
DXers 
DXpeditions 
Holiday DXpeditions 
Contesters 
Assisted-contesting 

Multi-operator contesting 
Computer logging 
Lids 
Kids 
Space Cadets 
Nets 
OQRS 
PayPal 
Ebay 
Ragchewers 
Computers 
Not enough computers 
Too many computers 
Not enough sunspots 
Too many sunspots 
Windows 
Windows 7 
Windows 10 
Apple 
iPad 
Microsoft 
Linux 
Android 
MacOS 
Lowband operators 
VHF operators 
Repeater operators 
Satellite operators 
Microwave operators 
Parks on the Air 
Islands on the Air 
Summits on the Air 
PacketCluster 
AR-Cluster 
LotW 
DXCC 
5B-DXCC 
DXCC Challenge 
WAS 
VUCC 
WAZ 
ARRL 
CQ Magazine (didn't want them to feel left out by ARRL on the list) 
73 Magazine (everyone is SK, so we shouldn't get any pushback) 
Propagation is not good enough - I can't hear people I want to talk to. 
Propagation is too good - I can hear people I don't want to talk to... 
K1MAN - OK, we could remove this as the odious little man (Glenn 
Baxter) is SK, but where's the fun in that?? 
Ebay 
QRZ.COM 
QTH.COM 
FCC 
Appliance operators 
CB guys 
California kilowatts 
Incentive licensing 
QRP 
QRO 
QRM 
QRN 
DQRM 
Using a Sideswiper 
Using Paddles 
Using a straight Key 
Using A Bug 
Using A Bug as a Straight Key 
Using a Keyer 

Kenwood 
Yaesu 
Icom 
Elecraft 
Collins 
Tall towers 
No towers 
Tower Rules 
Dayton 
Xenia 
JT65 
JT9 
FT8 
FT4 
K1JT 
DMR 
C4FM/System Fusion/Wires-X 
D-STAR 
EchoLink 
IRLP 
Remote Stations 
RemoteHams 
Remote Ham Radio 
TVI 
BCI 
Amplifiers 
Big Antennas 
Little Antennas 
OMs 
YLs 
XYLs 
Harmonics 
Sub-Harmonics 
Solid-State 
Tubes 
Integrated Circuits 
SDRs 


and countless more real and imagined threats 
----- Original Message -----

From: "Oliver Dröse" <droese@necg.de> 
To: cq-contest@contesting.com 
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 8:05:25 PM 
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Impact of FT* Modes on DXpeditions 

What about going back to spark transmissions or AM when talking about 
phone? Wasn't SSB such an huge advantage over AM some decades ago? What 
about code readers? Computer generated & read RTTY instead of huuuge 
teleprinter machines? I wonder if there were similar discussions back 
then ... 

Technology is advancing, guys. Nothing you can do about it. Yes, I'm 
using the FTx modes, too, although I prefer CW & SSB, absolutely. But 
ignoring it won't bring you any further. And, believe it or not, the FTx 
modes themselves are not the problem. The users are! Using it fully 
automated has indeed nothing to do with amateur radio anymore and should 
not be given any credit at all. Period. But it's almost impossible to 
track ... 

Anyway, if you really insist on showing how great you are using non-FTx 
modes, why not apply for DXCC-CW or SSB then? The FTx guys won't 
influence your standings there. ;-) 

73, Olli - DH8BQA 

Contest, DX & radio projects: https://www.dh8bqa.de/ 


Am 16.08.2019 um 16:21 schrieb robert: 
> GM Ria 
> 
> A few comments: 
> 
> I have no information and did not comment on "conspiracies 
> about it 
> 
> being a money thing " 
> 
> Your achievements are very nice. Did you use Low Power? 
> 
> Were FT8 part of this ? During the 6 months of my using FT8 
> 
> about 1 1/2 years ago I could not believe the number of YB's 
> and other 
> 
> rare DX that were easily worked on 40 meters. Is it really 
> fair for so many 
> 
> other many hams trying for a decent number of DXCC countries for 
> 
> years to all of a sudden see others with high country totals 
> using FT8 
> 
> after just a couple years ? 
> 
> FT8 certainly has it's place in ham radio, but the ARRL 
> DXCC program 
> 
> needs a serious new look when it comes mixing up FT8 with CW, 
> 
> SSB, and RTTY. 
> 
> 73 BoB WA1FCN 
> 
> On 8/15/2019 8:32 AM, rjairam@gmail.com wrote: 
>> It took me 13 years to get 327 DXCC, challenge 1900+ and 9 band DXCC 
>> including 160. I did my first DXCC in one year from a mobile station 
>> with a 6 foot whip. 
>> 
>> I did most of it on CW. 
>> 
>> I really don’t see how FT8 made it any easier. 
>> 
>> The reason it takes so little time now is because of the DX cluster 
>> and all of the data aggregation tools. 
>> 
>> The game changes, and if anything FT8 has made it harder for those of 
>> us who can just get in/out of a CW/SSB pileup because we developed 
>> that skill. But it has made DX possible for those who live in 
>> apartments and other heavily restricted places. 
>> 
>> At the League we discuss this and the consensus generally is that FT8 
>> is popular and brings in new operators. It’s a good thing. Separating 
>> them would tell ops who operate this mode that they are somehow not 
>> real hams or real DXers which is not a message to be sending. 
>> Especially since the average age of DXers is trending higher. 
>> 
>> The conspiracies about it being a money thing really aren’t valid. If 
>> anything processing the increased volume of QSLs and LoTW server load 
>> costs the League money, so it’s definitely not a money maker. 
>> 
>> 73 
>> Ria 
>> N2RJ 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 9:08 AM robert <wa1fcn@charter.net 
>> <mailto:wa1fcn@charter.net>> wrote: 
>> 
>> GM Matts/Yuri 
>> 
>> I agree with you about the ARRL's DXCC credit system. 
>> 
>> A mistake for sure. As a life long low power operator 
>> it has 
>> 
>> taken me 54 years to reach 40 meter DXCC of 280. By 
>> allowing 
>> 
>> FT8 credits mixed in with every thing I foresee in the 
>> near 
>> future, 
>> 
>> many achieving this in 10 years or less of effort. At 
>> the 
>> next sun spot 
>> 
>> cycle peak high DXCC totals on 10, 12, and 15 will be 
>> meaningless. I 
>> 
>> know of hams who no longer take part in DXCC for just 
>> this reason. 
>> 
>> FT8 credit for DXCC is fine, but keep it separated from 
>> single 
>> band/mixed 
>> 
>> mode totals. 
>> 
>> 74 BoB WA1FCN 
>> 
>> On 8/15/2019 1:30 AM, Mats Strandberg wrote: 
>> > I tend to agree with Yury. 
>> > 
>> > CY9 was much more balanced between modes, than the 3D2 (or least 
>> that was 
>> > my perception). 
>> > 
>> > It might be so that at the time of John’s (GD) participation in 
>> KP5 and 
>> > KP1, that there was no ambition to maximize the revenue through 
>> donations 
>> > (before, during and after the expedition). I don’t question that. 
>> > 
>> > However, since FT8 appeared as an equal mode for DXCC (along 
>> with CW,SSB 
>> > and RTTY), it definitely has changed some expeditions into 
>> becoming 
>> > automated QSO/QSL-creating machines... 
>> > 
>> > John, during KP1/KP5, the FT modes were not available, so 
>> comparison might 
>> > not be fully relevant. 
>> > 
>> > It is maybe good that FT8 will bring new “DXers” to the table, 
>> but the 
>> > appearance of this dull mode... has forever changed the feeling 
>> of “being 
>> > on the other side of the expedition”, and most likely also, 
>> being an 
>> > operator of that expedition as well. 
>> > 
>> > I question myself, what is the pleasure of being that rare DX, 
>> giving out 
>> > the ATNOs and the new band points, when the reality is that NO 
>> operator 
>> > skills are required from me to make those “contacts” happen! 
>> > 
>> > Before, good DX-expeditions we’re separated by less good ones, 
>> because of 
>> > operator skills. How wonderful was it not to listen to great 
>> operators, 
>> > handling thousand of callers, to maximize the number of contacts 
>> and happy 
>> > DXers on the other side? 
>> > 
>> > Those days were interesting and a memory of our past. The new 
>> FT8 euphoria 
>> > has forever changed the perception of DX-big, thanks to ARRL’s 
>> greed for 
>> > award revenue ;( 
>> > 
>> > And, what we now see is the result of the wrong decision to 
>> equalize FTx, 
>> > JT and other artificial modes, with RTTY, SSB and CW, and accept 
>> them for 
>> > DXCC Mixed. 
>> > 
>> > The correct way would have been to create FT/JT DXCC separate 
>> from Classic 
>> > DXCC... 
>> > 
>> > DXCC as we all knew it, has been hurt tremendously by ARRL 
>> unthoughtful 
>> > decision to accept FT/JT in Mixed! 
>> > 
>> > 73 de RM2D (Mats) 
>> > 
>> > On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 05:14, John Crovelli <w2gd@hotmail.com 
>> <mailto:w2gd@hotmail.com>> wrote: 
>> > 
>> >> I want to take a moment to dispel the notion suggested by Yuri 
>> that 
>> >> DXpedition operating strategy is all about financial 
>> considerations. It 
>> >> simply isn't for well planned operations. 
>> >> 
>> >> It is the intent of virtually every DXpedition to provide an 
>> opportunity 
>> >> for those running 100 watts or more to work an ATNO. 
>> DXpeditions teams are 
>> >> constantly considering ways to reach the broadest possible 
>> audience while 
>> >> on site. 
>> >> 
>> >> The implication that operating strategy and mode selection is 
>> all about 
>> >> post operation donations (to cover costs) is just not true. 
>> Well organized 
>> >> teams have these issues resolved well in advance. 
>> >> 
>> >> I've been on some large DXpeditions (KP5 and KP1 - both were 
>> top ten 
>> >> world). Our operating teams NEVER set goals based upon 
>> donations, and in 
>> >> fact, this issue was never even discussed since no one felt it 
>> to be 
>> >> important. Again, financing issues were resolved well before 
>> we ever 
>> >> departed for the islands. 
>> >> 
>> >> We did however (on a daily basis) take stock of propagation, 
>> probably of 
>> >> openings, and how we were providing global coverage ... to 
>> prevent missing 
>> >> opportunities to those regions traditionally most difficult. 
>> As a tool, 
>> >> FT8 can be useful. 
>> >> 
>> >> FT8 modes are providing options not previously available and 
>> for the most 
>> >> part now replaces RTTY activity. It is my expectation CW and 
>> SSB will 
>> >> always be the main modes for DXpeditions. 
>> >> 
>> >> John, W2GD aka P40W/P44W 
>> >> 
>> >> ________________________________ 
>> >> From: CQ-Contest <cq-contest-bounces@contesting.com 
>> <mailto:cq-contest-bounces@contesting.com>> on behalf of Yuri < 
>> >> ve3dz@rigexpert.net <mailto:ve3dz@rigexpert.net>> 
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 4:57 PM 
>> >> To: 'Jeff Clarke' <ku8e@ku8e.com <mailto:ku8e@ku8e.com>>; 
>> cq-contest@contesting.com <mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com> < 
>> >> cq-contest@contesting.com <mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com>> 
>> >> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WW-Digi Contest -- Rule Clarification 
>> >> 
>> >>>>> Seems like the last two big Dxpeditions (CY9 and 3D2) are 
>> putting FT8 
>> >> first before the traditional CW/SSB modes. I sure hope this 
>> isn't the 
>> >> future of ham radio. 
>> >> 
>> >> I might not be politically correct, but why not to mention that 
>> one of the 
>> >> all of the DXpeditions' goals is to try to maximize the overall 
>> QSO count 
>> >> in order to get more donation? That's what hiding behind "best 
>> kept secret" 
>> >> (that everybody knows) of F/H mode in FT8 in my opinion. 
>> >> I'm not saying it's bad or good, but it's a fact. 
>> >> Multi-channel streams need to be prohibited, otherwise it looks 
>> like 
>> >> hypocrisy. 
>> >> I still remember how the rules for M/S in the ARRL Contests 
>> were changed 
>> >> under the pressure after PJ4G(?) team managed to have 2 
>> stations on the 
>> >> same band (even not at the same time). 
>> >> 
>> >> Yuri VE3DZ 
>> >> 
>> >> -----Original Message----- 
>> >> From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces@contesting.com 
>> <mailto:cq-contest-bounces@contesting.com>] On Behalf Of 
>> >> Jeff Clarke 
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 10:51 AM 
>> >> To: cq-contest@contesting.com <mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com> 
>> >> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WW-Digi Contest -- Rule Clarification 
>> >> 
>> >> Didn't someone create a FT8 contest reflector? It would be nice 
>> to take 
>> >> all these comments over there. Seems like FT8 is monopolizing 
>> the contest 
>> >> reflector just like it is on the air. 
>> >> 
>> >> Seems like the last two big Dxpeditions (CY9 and 3D2) are 
>> putting FT8 
>> >> first before the traditional CW/SSB modes. I sure hope this 
>> isn't the 
>> >> future of ham radio. 
>> >> 
>> >> BTW I do operate some FT8 because I'm working on a the digital 
>> DXCC. 
>> >> (because there is hardly any RTTY activity outside of contests) 
>> Now that 
>> >> I've reached 100 countries I'm starting to get bored with it. 
>> >> 
>> >> Jeff 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> _______________________________________________ 
>> >> CQ-Contest mailing list 
>> >> CQ-Contest@contesting.com <mailto:CQ-Contest@contesting.com> 
>> >> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest 
>> >> _______________________________________________ 
>> >> CQ-Contest mailing list 
>> >> CQ-Contest@contesting.com <mailto:CQ-Contest@contesting.com> 
>> >> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest 
>> >> 
>> > _______________________________________________ 
>> > CQ-Contest mailing list 
>> > CQ-Contest@contesting.com <mailto:CQ-Contest@contesting.com> 
>> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest 
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