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Re: [TenTec] 566 Orion II Firmware Version V3.029---SpectrumDisplay&Tuni

To: "Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment" <tentec@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TenTec] 566 Orion II Firmware Version V3.029---SpectrumDisplay&Tuning...
From: "Bob McGraw - K4TAX" <RMcGraw@Blomand.net>
Reply-to: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:51:58 -0500
List-post: <mailto:tentec@contesting.com>
Thanks.

To the best of my understanding the AGC is not audio derived. I recall an firmware option with the Orion series that allowed the operator to choose which system from which the AGC was derived. My recall is that the audio derived system had several shortcomings.

The AGC is exactly that, an automatic gain control. Don't confuse this with AVC {automatic volume control}systems known to be used in earlier radios. These indeed were audio derived and usually with very long decay times to minimize gain pumping. In most radios today, usually there's at least 2 AGC loops, one controlled by the RF Gain and other circuits to prevent overload and another inside the DSP loop to prevent overload of the DSP system. The operator usually has control of the loop outside of the loop for the DSP system. Since digital systems have a fixed number of bits for processing, exceeding that bit range dynamically causes a big "splat" where the system doesn't know how to process the excess number. Thus the need for the DSP loop to control the dynamic range within the DSP system.

In reading through the posts, I see some dispersion in this discussion between the Orion II and other Tentec radios such as the Omni VII and Eagle that I have on the desk. Perhaps this where some of the confusion exists.

Someone made reference to the Omni VI Plus. This is a100% analog radio all the way, with exception to the audio DSP system, thus with regard to Attenuation and such pertaining to S meter display, all bets are off. I've owned 2 of these and, over the years, repaired numerous ones of the Omni and Paragon series.

The Collins 75S-3B RF Gain does affect the S meter reading in that reducing the RF Gain causes the S meter to move up scale accordingly. Again this is basically applying a DC control voltage to the RF and IF stages in effect to reduce the gain. Hence the S meter then shows the amount of gain reduction in S units. Any signal over that value is correctly displayed on the S meter.

Sorry for any confusion between the radios.

73
Bob, K4TAX




----- Original Message ----- From: <k3miy@csonline.net>
To: "Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment" <tentec@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [TenTec] 566 Orion II Firmware Version V3.029---SpectrumDisplay&Tuning...


Bob

Best description of the system I've seen today. In the modern rig,
is the S meter in the agc loop, and is the agc audio derived?
Thanks

Ron
K3MIY


Quoting Bob McGraw - K4TAX <RMcGraw@Blomand.net>:

According to Art Collins, generally credited with the adoption of the S
meter system, it was intended to give meaningful signal strength reports.
The old "green magic eye" on radios was a tuning indicator.  Yes, the
original value per my Collins 75A-3B manual shows S-9 = 100 uV.

Sitting here this evening in front of my Omni VII listening to WWV on 10
MHz, at 100% RF Gain the S meter indicates S-9 +6dB. Switching in the ATTN in 6 dB steps to 18 dB the S meter stays at S-9 +6dB. The answer is simple.

Add 18 dB of attenuation to the input, which automatically adds 18 dB of
gain to the S meter circuit.  The opposite is true when the preamp is
engaged. Add 12 dB of gain to the receiver circuit which automatically adds

12 dB of loss to the S meter circuit.  I refer to this as a smart S meter
system.  SMART =   Signal Measurement, Accurate, Reliable, True

The Eagle, no matter what one does in terms of Attenuation or RF Gain or
Preamp activation, the S meter reading does not change.  Again, same
concept.

Think about it, if you are receiving a station at S-9 + 20 dB and you switch

in 18 dB of attenuation, did you change his signal strength at the input of your radio? The answer is NO. You changed the signal at the input to the receiver first stage. Then shouldn't the S meter always reflect the signal strength regardless of what one did to their receiver gain system? Hence you can always be assured that the S meter system in the Tentec Omni VII and

Eagle will reflect the correct value at the input to the radio.

Even with a signal at the input of -23 dBm or 15,811 uV which is 50 dB over S 9, reduction of the RF Gain to 0% the S meter does not change. It still shows the signal at 50 dB over S 9, hence the system inversely adds gain to the S meter circuit to make up for the reduction in RF Gain. Therefore, the

S meter is correct reading regardless of RF Gain setting.  Of course once
you remove the 50 dB over S 9 signal with RF Gain at 0% you will see the S meter display drop to 40 dB over S 9. The point being that the RF Gain does

not affect the accuracy of the S meter reading above AGC threshold.

Now what one does see with no signal applied, as one reduces the RF Gain the

S meter moves upscale in 6 dB increments or 1 S unit.  This reflects the
threshold of AGC reference to S 9 being 50 uV.  At 100% RF Gain, as one
engages the ATTN function in 6 dB increments you will observe the S meter
indication move up scale 1 S unit per 6 dB. Now once reaching 18 dB, engage

the Preamp and you will see the S meter move down scale by 2 S units
indication that 12 dB of gain has been added.

All of the math works and so does the radio respond accordingly.

73
Bob, K4TAX


----- Original Message ----- From: <k3miy@csonline.net>
To: "Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment" <tentec@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [TenTec] 566 Orion II Firmware Version V3.029---SpectrumDisplay

&Tuning...


> You're right, Ray. In the old days, the S meter was regarded as a
> tuning aid, and nothing else.
>
> Ron
> K3MIY
>
>
> Quoting Rsoifer@aol.com:
>
>> Not only that, but the old Collins spec was 3 S units = 10 dB, not the
>> modern standard of 6 dB per S unit.
>>
>> More broadly, I'm afraid I just don't understand the continuing
>> preoccupation with S meter and spectrum display issues. Neither has >> much

>> to
>> do with
>> performance, which is where I'd like to see T-T focus their attention.
>> Flak
>>
>> jacket on!
>>
>> 73 Ray W2RS
>> _______________________________________________
>> TenTec mailing list
>> TenTec@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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