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Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 156, Issue 4

To: tentec <tentec@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 156, Issue 4
From: Carl Moreschi <n4py3@earthlink.net>
Reply-to: n4py3@earthlink.net, Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 10:16:56 -0500
List-post: <tentec@contesting.com">mailto:tentec@contesting.com>
There's a big difference between 600 and 400. The steep skirts add a lot of latency. Try 600 or 800.

Carl Moreschi N4PY
58 Hogwood Rd
Louisburg, NC 27549
www.n4py.com

On 12/8/2015 10:14 AM, Barry N1EU wrote:
400Hz in all cases was the receive bandwidth setting.

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Carl Moreschi <n4py3@earthlink.net
<mailto:n4py3@earthlink.net>> wrote:

    That's a function of the receive filter used.  The narrower the
    filter, the more latency.  What receive filter were you using?

    Carl Moreschi N4PY
    58 Hogwood Rd
    Louisburg, NC 27549
    www.n4py.com <http://www.n4py.com>

    On 12/8/2015 8:41 AM, Barry N1EU wrote:

        I just measured 170msec latency on the 6500 in cw receive.  It's
        a lot (too
        much for serious contesting IMHO) but it's not 350msec.

        My methodology was to transmit a single dit using another rig
        and used a
        microphone/soundcard to record the tx sidetone of rig 1 and then the
        received dit on rig 2.

        For comparison, my Orion II measured 45msec and my ANAN-100D SDR
        70msec for
        cw rx latency.

        73, Barry N1EU

        On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Barry N1EU<barry.n1eu@gmail.com
        <mailto:barry.n1eu@gmail.com>>  wrote:

            I will personally measure the latency of the Flex 6500 and
            get back to
            you.  I'm not believing 350msec at this point.

            73, Barry N1EU

            On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 7:59 AM, rick@dj0ip.de
            <mailto:rick@dj0ip.de><Rick@dj0ip.de
            <mailto:Rick@dj0ip.de>>  wrote:

                Sorry Barry, latency measured on the Anan does not
                necessarily apply to
                the
                FLEX 6000.

                Less than a year ago it was 350mS on the 6xxx, as
                measured by Rob
                Sherwood.

                We've had this discussion before and Rob jumped in and
                confirmed the 350
                number.
                I'm not sure which reflector it was on.  Might have been
                here, might have
                been on the Eagle or OM7 reflector.

                As I said, it may have changed but not long ago it was
                at 350.
                Until someone steps up and states that (s)he has
                measured it and found it
                better, that's the number I'm sticking with for the Flex
                6xxx radios.

                FB on the Anon latency numbers.

                At 25mS you can still hear in between dits at 40 wpm but
                just barely.
                When you go above that, you no longer hear between dits.

                After about 40 or 50ms latency, you (or rather I and a
                few friends) can no
                longer transmit clean CW by listening to the real time
                signal.  In that
                case
                we have to mute the radio and listen to the sidetone of
                the keyer because
                the delay is annoying and confuses the OP.

                Delay is still an issue but it has gotten a lot better.

                73 - Rick, DJ0IP
                (Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)



                -----Original Message-----
                From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com
                <mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com>] On Behalf Of Barry
                N1EU
                Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 1:49 PM
                To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
                Subject: Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 156, Issue 4

                Ha, I love a good tussle  ;-)

                I measured it on an ANAN-100D about a year ago.  I've
                seen numbers for the
                Flex 6K that are similar.  Latency of about 100-150msec
                for cw receive and
                ssb receive and transmit.  CW transmit latency in the
                ANAN and Flex is
                very
                low (on the order of tens of msec) because they both
                optimize it in the
                FPGA.

                73, Barry N1EU

                On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 5:45 AM, rick@dj0ip.de
                <mailto:rick@dj0ip.de><Rick@dj0ip.de
                <mailto:Rick@dj0ip.de>>  wrote:

                    Yes, it used to be much worse.
                    It is now 350 mS unless there has been some VERY
                    recent change.

                    Barry, if you say it's better, please specify who
                    measured it and
                    approximately when.
                    Otherwise I strongly disagree.

                    I am quoting recent measurements by Rob Sherwood.
                    Somewhere buried in 10,000 emails I have a recent
                    email from Rob
                    confirming this.
                    It was while running one of the big contests earlier
                    this year.

                    I'm not talking about old 5000 rigs, I mean the new
                    flagship line, 6xxx.

                    73 - Rick, DJ0IP
                    (Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com
                    <mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com>] On Behalf Of
                    Barry
                    N1EU
                    Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:29 AM
                    To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
                    Subject: Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 156, Issue 4

                    Rick, the latency on the latest SDR offerings has
                    come WAY down,
                    especially on the Flex 6000 series.  They ARE
                    contest capable.

                    I agree on the knobs.  I applaud the Flex Maestro
                    interface panel - I
                    think it's a harbinger of products to come in the
                    future, where many
                    vendors can offer various front panels that can be
                    interfaced to many
                    different SDR types.  Or someone could write the
                    code to use an Orion
                    front panel to control an SDR, etc.

                    For me, the draw of the direct sampling SDR radios
                    (ANAN, Flex 6K) is
                    that their receivers simply sound better than the
                    best superhet/dsp i.f.

                radios.


                    With the introduction of the not-overly-impressive
                    IC-7300, perhaps
                    we'll be seeing several direct sampling (DDC/DUC)
                    bundled in a fully
                    knobbed self-contained box in the next 1-3 years.

                    73, Barry N1EU

                    On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 7:24 AM, rick@dj0ip.de
                    <mailto:rick@dj0ip.de><Rick@dj0ip.de
                    <mailto:Rick@dj0ip.de>>  wrote:

                        EXCEPT . . .  for latency and lack of affordable
                        knobs.

                        Last reviews I saw still had turnaround latency
                        between TX and RX at
                        350 mS.
                        If both ops are running SDR, and trying to run
                        full QSK, that's 0.7
                        seconds.
                        It's gonna sound like "Chop Phooey" on the air!

                        The set of knobs (Maestro) for the lowest cost
                        $2000 Flex Radio (in
                        the class that interests most of us) is $1200 or
                        so.  OR...the big
                        single knob from Flex will set you back $200 if
                        you are willing to
                        wait long enough to get one.

                        A decent 3rd party set of knobs, such as the
                        Wood Box Radio T-MATE-2
                        probably has enough knobs for most of us, but it
                        will set you back
                        $300 AND Flex software won't support it.  You
                        need a 3rd party
                        software (i.e. N4PY Radio Control Software) to
                        use it with your Flex.
                        Get it all set up and working with your WIN7
                        computer, then upgrade
                        to

                    WIN10 and watch the "real"

                        fun begin.

                        Other than that, there's not much wrong with the
                        current crop of SDR
                        radios...

                        73 - Rick, DJ0IP
                        (Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TenTec
                        [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com
                        <mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com>] On
                        Behalf Of Kim
                        Elmore
                        Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 2:40 AM

                        There's absolutely nothing wrong with SDR; I
                        don't fully understand
                        why so many people complain about it


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