Hi Mark and others interested in this topic....
I did not realize that there were so many "issues" for stations running
/R. I suppose that is because moving my station from grid to grid would
be a real problem.....HI.
It seems clear that those running /R should try to come up with a set of
"best practices" for the rover group. Other than being sure that
everyone is using the contest mode, I don't feel that I can contribute
to that. I encourage the /R operators to "hash this out". This is a
good forum, but maybe the WSJT reflector would work as well.
I hope that you did well in the contest....
73 Marshall K5QE
On 6/11/2018 11:17 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:
Hi Marshall. Firstly I agree with your comments (and thanks for continuing to
remind us about the need to run contest mode.) That being said,
I took another run at rover operations with WSJT-x this contest (ie. I had to set my call to
"VE7AFZ/R".) As I suspect many are aware the FT8 messages can be a bit different when a
station appends "/R" to their call. I only ran FT8 on 50 MHz and managed to catch a
couple of band openings while doing so.
I made an effort to take screen shots of what I saw and in reviewing them (and after reflecting a
bit about what worked and what didn't work for me) I'm coming to the conclusion that "split
frequency operation" may not always be a good fit when one is running with a "/R"
call.
As I type this I'm looking at a screen shot showing showing two different "VE7AFZ/R 73"
messages that I received in the same time slot on two different audio frequencies. (Along with a
subsequent message on one of the same frequencies that appears to be a free message saying
"VE7AFZ 73". I'll hold off on commenting about my concerns about what call the other
station might have in their log for me.)
During the contest I tried with varying levels of success to figure out which
call came from which station by looking at the audio frequencies. So if
stations are going to change audio frequencies when working a rover please try
to remember that some messages may only contain one call and the rover may be
using the audio frequencies to determine which station sent a message that may
not contain the call of the station that sent it.
Conversely if I am sending a message such as "DE VE7AFZ/R CN99" in response to
a CQ from another station sending it on exactly the same audio frequency that I received
the CQ would seem to me be the best plan. (Sending this message on a different audio
frequency would seem confusing if multiple stations can hear me.)
As a rover my preference at this point would be to usually only run on one audio frequency. If
others don't agree with this I'd be happy to listen to alternatives. To be transparent I am still
not entirely sure I have really figured out how to effectively run FT8 during a band opening with a
"/R" call and basically the only time I can practice is during a contest so this may take
me a while to figure out (: I also didn't seem to have any issues working stations on FT8
(without using a "/R" call) on a 50 MHz band opening prior to the contest although I
wasn't in a semi rare grid at the time (I believe two of the three grids I visited during the
contest (CO80 and CN99) can be considered to be semi rare and at times I had several callers.) I
like to think things ran a bit smoother for me on Sunday than they did on Saturday (after I had
reflected a bit about how things worked or didn't work on Saturday.)
To avoid a thread hi jack I'll keep the rest of my thoughts regarding the way WSJT-x (while running
MSK144 and FT8) handles "/R" calls to myself for the time being but I hope you don't mind
me adding this issue to your email thread as I believe at times "/R" operators have a
reasonably valid reason to only run on one audio frequency.
73
Mark S
VE7AFZ/R
mark@alignedsolutions.com
604 762 4099
On Jun 11, 2018, at 7:45 PM, Marshall-K5QE <k5qe@k5qe.com> wrote:
Hello to all the VHF contesters who ran the June contest.
Due to all the hype concerning FT8, we decided this year to add a completely
independent 6M station just to monitor FT8. The station has a 6M5X for the
antenna and a small SSPA. The new station was interlocked with the main 6M run
station to keep one station from blowing out the other.
When the contest began, there was no Es on 6M, so naturally we went to 50.313
looking for FT8 contacts. There were 6-8 traces visible. Some were weak and
some were really strong. So, we started trying to work them.
The results were terribly frustrating. We tried running S&P by keeping our TX fixed on
1500 or 1200(or whatever) and calling stations that were calling CQ. Many would not come
back to us unless we got right on their frequency. Apparently, these ops did not realize
that it is possible to work just fine with our audio on 1500 and theirs on 1244. It is sort
of a "split operation", but it works very well and you can hold your CQ frequency.
A goodly number were still not using the "NA Contest Mode", so you could not
complete with them in any normal way. The best we could do was to stop using the contest
mode(CM) long enough to complete with them. Sometimes, this was successful, sometimes
not. Remember that if one station is in the CM and the other one is not, the messages do
not proceed properly. Using the CM is critical.
We could tell that this was not a recipe for success, so we started calling CQ
ourselves, keeping our TX audio fixed at 1500. We worked stations from all
over the waterfall, but it was slow going. We often were called by a station
with a decent signal, but when we went right back to them, they disappeared and
were never seen again. This wasted a lot of time. Many of those folks that
answered our CQ were not in the CM, so, it was very hard to get their grid as
many of them called using Tx2(K5QE K2XXX -02) rather than Tx1 which has the
grid.
Whenever our op could see that FT8 signals were really strong, he would jump to
SSB and work whatever he could. On Sat, about half of our 6M contacts(about
225) and half of our grids(about 60) were made on SSB. If the Es died out, he
would go back to FT8.
At the end of SatHello to all the VHF contesters who ran the June contest.
Due to all the hype concerning FT8, we decided this year to add a completely
independent 6M station just to monitor FT8. The station has a 6M5X for the
antenna and a small SSPA. The new station was interlocked with the main 6M run
station to keep one station from blowing out the other.
When the contest began, there was no Es on 6M, so naturally we went to 50.313
looking for FT8 contacts. There were 6-8 traces visible. Some were weak and
some were really strong. So, we started trying to work them.
The results were terribly frustrating. We tried running S&P by keeping our TX fixed on
1500 or 1200(or whatever) and calling stations that were calling CQ. Many would not come
back to us unless we got right on their frequency. Apparently, these ops did not realize
that it is possible to work just fine with our audio on 1500 and theirs on 1244. It is sort
of a "split operation", but it works very well and you can hold your CQ frequency.
A goodly number were still not using the "NA Contest Mode", so you could not
complete with them in any normal way. The best we could do was to stop using the contest
mode(CM) long enough to complete with them. Sometimes, this was successful, sometimes
not. Remember that if one station is in the CM and the other one is not, the messages do
not proceed properly. Using the CM is critical.
We could tell that this was not a recipe for success, so we started calling CQ
ourselves, keeping our TX audio fixed at 1500. We worked stations from all
over the waterfall, but it was slow going. We often were called by a station
with a decent signal, but when we went right back to them, they disappeared and
were never seen again. This wasted a lot of time. Many of those folks that
answered our CQ were not in the CM, so, it was very hard to get their grid as
many of them called using Tx2(K5QE K2XXX -02) rather than Tx1 which has the
grid.
Whenever our op could see that FT8 signals were really strong, he would jump to
SSB and work whatever he could. On Sat, about half of our 6M contacts(about
225) and half of our grids(about 60) were made on SSB. If the Es died out, he
would go back to FT8.
At the end of Sat night, we had more contacts on 2M than we had on 6M. This is
pretty ridiculous in June. Our score was about 28K. It was terribly
frustrating and my stress level was a bit high.
On Sunday, we found the Es opening at about 8AM, maybe a bit earlier. Signals
were strong and we began running hard. Several of the top ops had to go home,
because they had to work on Monday. So, I had to man the 6M station from about
Noon to 9PM. I was running 100-120 per hour for several hours, which later
fell back to about 60 per hour later in the evening. At the end, we had 202
grids and 980+ contacts on 6M. Our score was now 400K+ and less stress on
me....HI.
The bottom line is that FT8 performed about as I feared it would. The large
number of newbies and / or HFers that insist on running without the contest
mode hurt the number of contacts that we were able to make and really hurt the
rate. Ditto the folks that think you have to be right on their frequency. All
this can be fixed with some education and some (gentle?) persuasion. We
somehow have to get these folks to understand that in the VHF world, we need
GRIDS, most especially in a contest, where the grid is the exchange. I DON'T
CARE HOW THEY DO IT ON HF!! As VHFers, I believe that we should use the CM at
all times. Maybe folks would see how much better it is.
RECOMMENDATIONS:
1. Use SSB or CW whenever signals are up. It is MUCH faster and you will work
more contacts with more grids. I had several hours with a rate above 100 per
hour. You just cannot do this with FT8 as the absolute maximum number of
contacts is 60 per hour...and in practice, you cannot do that. It did not
happen in this contest, but I have seen one of our top ops run over 200
contacts in an hour.
2. Use the "NA Contest Mode" in contests. I believe we should use it at all times, just
so the newbies and HFers will see that rather than the "funny little numbers".
3. Stations calling CQ should pick an audio frequency and stay there. Work
S&P stations anywhere in the waterfall. This alone will help a lot.
4. Don't make one call and then disappear. Obviously, some contacts will fail
for whatever reason(band drops, amp blows up, or something like that), but you
will work a lot more if you stick with it.
FINAL THOUGHTS:
I think that with some education and some practice, FT8 can work a lot of stuff
whenever Es is NOT happening. It is a useful tool to be added to the
contesting toolbox. We just need to eliminate the bad operating practices so
that everyone can maximize their contacts....big stations and small ones alike.
I am most interested in how others found FT8 in this contest. Was it better or
worse than what I have described above? If you like my recommendations, then
promote them. If not, please let me know how we can all do better. I always
appreciate intelligent ideas and discussion. Flames go directly to the bit
bucket--they will not pass GO and will not collect $200.
73 Marshall K5QE
k5qe@k5qe.com
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