That was a very interesting post Mark and thanks for taking the time.
 In the mid 60's to 80's I was very interested in LF and MF BCB DXing and at 
first I had a loaner HRO-500 (I worked at National 1963-69) and later my own 
with the LF-10 preselector which I still have and use here for general BC 
and SW listening.
 Most of the serious listening was at York Beach ME and in the car with the 
receiver on its own 12V car or lawn tractor battery. My inlaws had a summer 
cottage under a quarter mile inland. Antennas at first were simple wires on 
tripods going from the US RT 1A beach road right into the water about 
100-150' away or parallel to it, they were fairly directional. Later I used 
short terminated Beverages pointed at EU, AF, and SA and switch selectable; 
these even had excellent directivity on LF. The York Beach cops were 
tolerant and then downright friendly over time and even bringing me hot 
coffee in the winter as Id often be there until midnight!
 Random weekend experiments with Beverages running along the cottage 
"development" dirt paths after the summer residents left were mixed results 
with sometimes big grayline enhancements and also sunrise at the eastern 
end. The Carribean and SA was usually a dud as it was almost 2 miles over 
high loss sand before getting to the ocean again. At this time the Beverages 
were in the 600' range and about 8' high running thru trees and shrubs so 
the cops could patrol. While no direct comparisons with the ones at the 
water were made they were felt to be well down in performance but better 
than at home in Raymond or Pelham NH.
 Having only paper bulletins or SWL magazines in the days before Al Gore 
invented the Internet were frustrating to say the least and getting ID's was 
often guesswork. I had a battery operated tape recorder for deciphering at 
home and I often played them at work to coworkers inorder to determine the 
language.
 In 1989 I moved about 5 miles to a roughly 675' high hilltop still here in 
Pelham with an elevation drop of 300-500' within 1.5 miles or less over 360* 
and 5 acres of my own plus access to about 400A more of which Ive only used 
a tiny amount of that for Beverages in order to get away from a couple of RF 
noisy neighbors. It is the highest point in about 20 miles and downhill to 
the Atlantic over a wide azimuth. For the most part I hear quite well, 
especially on 160/80.
 Most current MF/LF DXing is with either a TS-940 or TS-950SD, both loaded 
with filters.
 I know Dallas Lankford but otherwise have had no involvement with the BCB 
DXing community.
 BTW, what are the best California BC stations to look for? Its been decades 
since Ive heard one but I havent tried hard at all.
Carl
KM1H
 Some long-time observations from about 55 years of AM broadcast band DXing 
MAY have some relevance to this discussion.
 That hobby has had a lot of simultaneous inland-versus-coastal signal 
strength comparison studies over the years, largely from the US and 
Canadian Atlantic and Pacific coasts but also from a variety of other 
sites around the globe.
 Nick Hall-Patch (VE7DXR) and Chuck Hutton (WD4ELO) who comment 
periodically on this list are both active in both amateur radio and 
broadcast DXing.  They, along with Bruce Portzer, Guy Atkins, Gary DeBock, 
Pat Martin, Walter Salmaniw, Dallas Lankford, and others have done a lot 
of DXing at prime sites along the Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia 
coast.
 Here on the East Coast, many observations have been done by enthusiasts 
such as Bruce Conti, Neil Kazaross, Ben Dangerfield, Jean Burnell, Marc 
DeLorenzo, and myself.  Both simultaneous listening at various sites and 
long-term observations from somewhat-inland and "beach DXpedition" sites 
have given rise to a number of findings.  There could be at least a 
certain amount of crossover relevance to 160m and perhaps even 80/75m.
Here are a few conclusions:
 * The advantages of being at the shore are substantial in the pre-sunset 
period along east-facing shorelines and post-sunrise along west-facing 
shorelines.  Saudi Arabia 1521 (2 megawatts) can be heard up to 4 hours 
pre-sunset in autumn / winter right at the shore in New England and 
Atlantic Canada, even with modest antennas.  At sites even just 10 miles 
(16 km) inland, two hours pre-sunset is about as good as you get on 
similar "compromise" antennas.  Here's a typical Massachusetts coast 
recording of the 1521 flamethrower:
" http://www.qsl.net/wa1ion/audio1/dx_saudi_arabia-1521_20060503_2300z.mp3 
".  A small car roof mounted loop was all that was necessary.
 * The differences between shore and inland are less when efficient 
full-sized antennas (vertical at least 1/8 wave over a good radial system, 
or halfwave dipole mounted a quarter wave or higher above the ground 
directly below it) as contrasted with lower-efficiency / smaller antennas 
often used for receive (figure-of-8 or cardioid-pickup loops, active 
whips), especially if those antennas are near the ground.  No surprise 
there.
 * The differences between shore and inland are less when the route is 
shorter, the path is all dark, and solar activity is low.  New England to 
UK or Norway in autumn or winter might only show about a 6 dB advantage to 
a coastal site to a similarly-equipped station inland (meaning, roughly, 
more than 20 miles of average soil to the nearest salt water on the 
bearing of interest).  Deep Africans and South Americans heard during 
auroral conditions, or anything from the Middle East and beyond (> 5000 
miles) at any time, will show a strong enhancement, at least on smaller 
antennas, near the shore.  For many years I have been noting what medium 
wave stations from places such as South Africa, Lesotho, Brazil, and 
Argentina can do at various sites in Massachusetts.  Up to 2012 I lived in 
west-suburban locations near Boston.  These are more than 30 miles from 
the ocean on the southeasterly bearings towards Brazil.  In thousands of 
hours of listening over more than 50 years I think that four or five 
Brazilians would be the maximum logged in the 530-1710 kHz range.  Where I 
am now in South Yarmouth, MA on Cape Cod - about two miles from West 
Dennis Beach on the range of Brazil-ward bearings - I've logged close to 
10 Brazilians in about two years.  My parents' house in West Yarmouth 
(1974-2001) and my brother-in-law's in East Harwich (1994-2004), also 
about two miles inland on Brazil bearings, performed similarly to my 
present QTH.  But the big winner is listening from the car directly sited 
at beaches with open water to the southeast.  I had more than a dozen 
Brazilian stations in a single two-hour session at Orleans, MA and, 
cumulatively, over 20 stations from Brazil in the logbook as a result of 
various MA beach DXpeditions over the years just using small loop or 
active whip antennas mounted on the car roof - antennas far inferior to 
what could be run at various house-based sites.  The station from 
Fortaleza, Brazil on 760 kHz barely ever registers a peep in the suburbs 
west of Boston but it's often loud around sunset (after semi-local WVNE 
power-down) at shore locations such as Tonset Rd. - Orleans, MA (Cape Cod) 
and Granite Pier - Rockport, MA (Cape Ann).  The shore-vs.-inland 
difference on that one is easily 25 dB.  This is why, on both coasts of 
North America, year after year, broadcast-band DXpeditions produce 
loggings in a single night that the same DXers have not heard from home in 
a lifetime of listening, sometimes even if using better receivers and 
antennas.  So many years of different DXers noting the same results take a 
lot of the statistical uncertainty out of the equation - it just can't be 
that every time someone went out to the shore the propagation magically 
went crazy and then went back to dull / normal as soon the DXer was back 
in his own driveway.  Anyway, that significant shore-versus-inland 
conditions can exist is borne out by the fact that, on at least some 
occasions, several DXers were listening at the same time from various 
sites and noting big differences in strengths and quantity of long-haul 
loggings.   It used to be difficult to prove things when you had to be on 
the exact same frequency at the exact same time.  Nowadays DXers are 
saving the entire spectrum to disk from SDR receivers such as Perseus and 
Excalibur.  A top-of-hour (prime ID time) +/- 2 minutes band capture from 
Location A can now very accurately be compared to one made during the same 
time interval from Location B.
 * There are times that, contrary to common intuition, a very long haul 
route is best covered by antenna that works for high take-off angles. 
This is typically during greyline transitions and results from 
reflective-layer tilting / chordal-mode propagation.  During such a 
condition, my "gut feel" is that there should be very little difference 
between coastal and inland sites.
 * To muddy things up further, inland sites can vary quite a bit too.  Some 
of the advantage of shore sites may be owing to minimal obstructions as 
well as to good conductivity.  Obstructions degrade lower-angle signals as 
well as poor ground conductivity.  An inland "wide open farm" (or grassy 
marsh area) with a long view to the horizon in the direction of interest 
is going to outperform a "typical suburban" site with buildings, power 
lines, and tall trees towards the DX.  An elevated site would outperform 
normal suburbia for the same reason.  Just as with a shore site, the 
unobstructed-view inland site is also apt to have less man-made RF / local 
electrical noise coming in from the desired direction than "average" sites 
in developed areas.
 * If you don't have a coastal site, altitude would be the next-best magic 
bullet.  This means both in terms of the antenna height above the ground 
directly below it and the actual surface level relative to surrounding 
terrain.  A house site that I used in East Harwich, MA was about a mile 
and a half inland over lossy sandy soil.  Sunset-period transatlantic 
reception on a small homebrew broadband loop of similar performance to a 
Wellbrook ALA1530 was evaluated at a nearby shore site (Town Landing near 
Tar Kiln Road - S. Orleans, MA) and at the house.  Predictably, big 
stations such as Algeria 549 and Saudi Arabia 1521 came in an hour earlier 
right at the seashore.  Some of the inland deficiency was removed by 
relocating the small loop from near-ground-level to about 70 ft. height 
(via rope over the top of a pitch pine tree).  I'd say that the treetop 
loop performance came in about halfway between the near-the-ground loop 
operated at the house and operated at the shore.
 The latest crazy aspect of medium-wave DXpeditioning is exploiting TWO 
magic bullets - seaside PLUS altitude - at the same time.  Gary DeBock 
(N7EKX) has led the charge on this at the "Rockwork 4" site on the Oregon 
coast.  See " 
http://www.antenadx.com.br/?wpdmact=process&did=MjcxLmhvdGxpbms= " for one 
write-up.  From 2013 we have a DXpedition article starting with 
"Concurrent with a separate DXpedition in Yachats (OR), from July 21-27 
another wild ocean cliff DXpedition was conducted from "Rockwork 4," a 
400' high sheer cliff located on Highway 101 in Tillamook County, Oregon."
See " 
http://www.hard-core-dx.com/article.php?story=20130731111543372&mode=print 
".
Sample reception of 603 kHz Radio Waatea in Auckland, New Zealand, 5 kW:
  " 
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/u25glqbzfr7e2h3/603-R.Waatea-1253z072213PL380.MP3 
".  No one in the USA has heard a signal like that from this station at 
inland home sites.
 Acadia National Park in Maine has similar sites with both salt water 
proximity and high altitude.  Strong Brazilians on 1100, 1220, 1280, etc. 
are pretty common stuff at the top of Cadillac Mountain there.
 As others have mentioned, you can undo a lot of the "inland disadvantage" 
by the use of highly-efficient tall verticals over a copious radial field 
or a horizontal antenna at heights in the half-wavelength or greater 
range, e.g. 250 ft. at Topband.  Site altitude (mountaintop) or, barring 
that, wide open level or downsloping farmland free of obstructions will 
help too.
 Sometimes it's all up to the ionosphere.  Of US regions, New England often 
has the best punch to Europe if only because of shortest distance - 
coastal vs. inland notwithstanding.  But if the auroral "doughnut" (torus) 
is too much in the way, Florida will outperform by using open paths south 
of the auroral zone.  Northern Lakes and Plains states (e.g. Minnesota) 
might also outdo W1-land by getting through the "doughnut hole." 
Certainly going US to northern Norway and Sweden this is often the case: 
the route from MN, ND, etc. over Hudson Bay can frequently beat what's 
coming from MA, NY, etc. along the Atlantic but heading straight into the 
jaws of the aurora.
 Now that we've analyzed the heck out of shore versus inland, I guess 
mountaintop versus lowland would be the next thing to discuss.
Mark Connelly, WA1ION
South Yarmouth, MA
<<
Hi Guys
 K3ZM is my brother - and his 160m antenna is located in a salt marsh just 
to the
West of Chesapeake Bay in Matthews, Va as I recall. Indeed he is located 
inland
a bit (eg: not directly at water's edge) - perhaps 1000 feet distant 
(although
this is only a guess on my part from photos I have seen).  But the 
intervening
land is also primarily salt marsh.  At certain times of the year this land
 floods with salt water and it is necessary to wear very tall boots in 
order to
walk out to the base of the towers Peter owns.  I am sure Peter could add 
more
specifics.
 From conversations I have had with Peter over the years - and from 
listening to
his signal over at 7O6T, I can tell you that he is very competitive when
 compared to his peers.  Additionally, his ability to hear for a location 
so far
South (eg - not in New England) - especially in winter is quite remarkable 
His
contest results in 160M contests speak for themselves.
Other observations - perhaps relevant, perhaps not.
 W1WEF and I often get together for lunch in Orleans on Cape Cod.  Jack 
works the
HF bands from his mobile CW rig in his car - and when he drives out to the
 peninsula where I live (just off Pleasant bay which is salt water) - dead 
15m
and 20M bands magically go from NO European signals to a full band of 
signals as
he comes up the road that runs along the Bay.  He describes it as going 
from a
DEAD BAND to a wide open band as he nears my home.  This is in the daytime 
in
summer as I recall.
 Personally here at VY2ZM - I am sure by co-locating my vertical systems at 
or
near the water's edge has helped me - to what degree I am not sure - but 
it is
rare to be outheard looking NE or East on the lowbands.
 During this thread I am pretty sure I read a post that co-location near 
Salt
water is additive also for horizontal yagis.  I do not believe this to be
 correct.  My good friend Don Toman has several times told me the effect we 
are
seeing here is primarily limited to verticals - and not to horizontal 
yagis -
which according to Don, rely principally on their height above ground as 
the key
variable impacting their performance.
On the other hand, shooting out over open ocean from a slightly elevated
 position with HF yagis is a pretty good takeoff to be sure.  Especially 
when
compared to looking uphill over land in other directions - which I find 
causes
performance to suffer by comparison.
FWIW
 Salt water is good stuff.  Especially for verticals placed at or near the 
ocean
- with additional ocean out in front of the antenna for hundreds of miles. 
I
too have never fully understood the phenomena but I know it is magical in 
terms
of lowband DX'ing performance.
73 JEFF  K1ZM/VY2ZM
 
 
 
 
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