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Re: [TowerTalk] Loop vs Dipole...I'm original "asker"

To: "Tower Talk List" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Loop vs Dipole...I'm original "asker"
From: "Jim Brown" <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:26:16 -0700
List-post: <towertalk@contesting.com">mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:13:05 +0100, Steve Hunt wrote:

>I wasn't arguing that modelling is better than empirical measurement, 
>but that modelling is probably better than innumerate answers. It is 
>certainly a useful "first step" in developing a new antenna, and it 
has 
>saved me a lot of shoe leather :)

Jerry and Steve have said this rather well for us techie types, but I'm 
gonna underline it for those aren't so techie. 

OF COURSE actual meausrement of the performance of an antenna (or any 
other system) is better than a computer model. BUT -- MEANINGFUL 
measurement of an antenna is BLOODY DIFFICULT, EXPENSIVE, and TIME 
CONSUMING. At a minimum, you need a controlled test range and a means 
of moving an RX antenna around it in three dimensions in a controlled 
way. Maybe you could hire a copter and a pilot and a test rig for a day 
or two to do that?  Not with my credit card! 

>One other point -  it seems to me that the same "unknowns" in an 
>antenna's environment which might make modelling untrustworthy, might 
>equally make a fellow Ham's practical experiences irrelevant. In other 
>words "just because it works for him doesn't mean it will work for 
me".

Again, EXACTLY RIGHT. The missing data for the model are those things 
you forget about when you build the antenna, or are too complex for the 
program to compute. NEC works on flat earth to produce the DIRECTIONAL 
PATTERN (and field strength) for the antenna. It is VERY good at that 
if you plug in all the conductive stuff AROUND the antenna. As an 
example of this, take a look at pages 61-63 of 

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/NCDXACoaxChokesPPT.pdf

which talks about an NEC model of how the pattern of an 80M vertical is 
distorted by feedlines to other antennas nearby. You want to talk about 
theory and practice -- soon after I moved here I got the vertical 
working fine, then added a couple of more high dipoles for other bands 
that ran past the vertical and up to about 100 ft. On-air performance 
was a lot worse, so I suspected those new feedlines. I stuck ferrite 
chokes on them near the ground, and it killed the interaction. The NEC 
model predicted both the interaction and the validity of the fix. But I 
had to be observant enough to plug in the spatial positions for those 
other feedlines. 

There is other very good software that predicts the VERTICAL pattern of 
horizontally polarized antennas at varying heights over REAL terrain in 
the FAR FIELD of the antenna. In other words, it tells you how YOUR 
antenna is going to work differently from the FLAT LAND NEC model. 

You download terrain data from USGS sites on the internet. This 
software, called HFTA (High Frequency Terrain Analysis), was written by 
N6BV, editor of the ARRL Antenna Book and a member of our local ham 
club. He's a pretty smart guy, and the software WORKS. A bunch of our 
guys (myself included) have used it to decide how high to put our 
antennas depending on our terrain. We live in the mountains of CA, and 
the terrain here is anything but flat. Without exception, they guys who 
have used it say it gives very good answers to what happens in their 
part of the real world. It tells us, for example, how our antennas will 
react with a steep slope up or down from our QTH. I don't know of any 
comparable software for vertically polarized antennas. 

The important thing to realize here is that the difference between the 
loop that the original poster asked about and a decent dipole wasn't a 
lot, and you are NOT going to reliably see those differences in 
ordinary ham  QSOs, even with lots of them and lots of thought. To see 
those differences, you need the copter, and a damned good engineer 
running the experiment. 

Ah, you say, why not hang both antennas and switch between them?  Lots 
of guys have done that, including me. My experience has been that the 
difference between similar good antennas is often less than the result 
of selective fading. That is, a signal may peak at one antenna while it 
is dipping at another antenna some distance away. 

73,

Jim Brown K9YC



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