[RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge

Thu Sep 24 18:17:14 EDT 2020

This sounds like something the ARRL and W1VLF should be paid for!!!  In my
small EMC/RFI consulting business, I sure wouldn't be doing this for
free!!!!!!!  Some limited up-front consulting is in order to scope the
problem(s), but then, expect to pay for the knowledge and service.

Dave - WØLEV
EMC Design & Test, LLC

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:51 PM Hare, Ed W1RFI <w1rfi at arrl.org> wrote:

> We have come a long way, but still have a ways to go. Fortunately, we are
> dealing with a company that is holding space for all of this and willing to
> work towards better and better solutions.
>
> The initial installations were pretty bad.  They simply ran a single wire
> between anything that was series strung, which formed a giant loop.  The
> FCC rules on emission control ONLY conducted emissions ON THE AC MAINS, so
> any noise present on that loop did not have a specific limit.  So, the
> early systems complied with the letter of the law.
>
> Over time, Solar Edge has taken a number of steps, each of which resulted
> in quieter systems and effective correction to more systems.  This included
> replacing the loop with twisted pair, not in a loop configuration, the
> addition of common-mode chokes, improvements to the common-mode choking,
> redesigned optimizers, redesigned inverters and ongoing work that Solar
> Edge is undertaking, working with W1VLF, trying new improvements. Honestly,
> this is above and beyond what most companies do and I, for one, am
> appreciative.  This whole thing has gotten the attention of the industry in
> general, and W1VLF has been contacted by Generac, another solar
> manufacturer, looking to work with ARRL to help them design a system that
> will be a gold standard for low-noise operation.  Patience is paying off,
> albeit in steps and timelines smaller than any of us really like.,
>
> There is also the question of what harmful interference actually is, and
> cases where there is S9 noise only when a beam antenna is pointed at a
> house is typically seen differently by regulators, industry and amateur
> operators.  I have said several times here, we are all better off not
> having a line in the sand because if FCC ever were forced to draw that
> line, I can say with certainty that we are not going to like it.  FCC has
> rarely been required to even assess an individual circumstance as harmful
> interference, and when it has, that assessment has been all over the map.
> I do know they will consider the level of interference, the frequency
> occupancy, a comparison of that level to median values of man-made noise
> (typically S6+ on lower bands, btw...), whether the amateur can make use of
> frequency agility, how often it occurs, time of day and possibly even the
> phase of the moons orbiting Saturn.
>
> New solutions coming out of Solar Edge have been slow, but steady, so at
> this point, I an awaiting the next round to result from Solar Edge working
> with W1VLF.  I think that this is the stage at which I or VLF may want to
> do a site visit to a few locations, to see just what has been done, what
> can be done and to possibly try new improvements.
>
> And thanks for pointing out the value of our work.  This is just the tip
> of the iceberg, as ARRL staff work with manufacturers like this, with
> industry groups, with the FCC, with entities like the IEEE, as industry
> standards and practices are developed that could impact amateur radio.  As
> was done in this case, we don't always have a grand sweeping victory
> (although that is possible, too), but manage to ensure that information
> about amateur radio is available as standards are developed, ARRL staff and
> other amateurs participate in working groups and, most important, as
> decisions are made by industry, ARRL has a seat at the table.  We don't
> hold seats in the back of the room, but at the head of the table. I am the
> IEEE EMC Society Vice President for Standards in a volunteer capacity, and
> we have other amateur volunteers serving as liaisons between the EMC
> Society, ARRL and other industry groups.  For me, that and the things ARRL
> does to bring amateur radio into classrooms, into variou
>  s EmComm organizations and similar work overshadows whether I think that
> ARRL made the right decision wrt QSL bureau costs of the rules for the
> Whoop and Holler contest.  Okay, soapbox off.   But if any of this does
> encourage people to join, include a note that explains your reasons for
> joining, and send a copy of that to your ARRL Division Director.  Those
> notes do get read and passed around, and Directors make policy decisions
> based on what members say is important.
>
> Ed Hare, W1RFI
> ARRL Lab  Manager
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org at contesting.com> On Behalf Of
> r55stan at gmail.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:16 AM
> To: 'Tony' <73guddx at gmail.com>; 'Rfi List' <rfi at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge
>
> If SolarEdge applies their fix and the noise is still too high, it is
> possible they missed one panel.  That happened with one  of my neighbors
> about two years ago.  They finally got it right on the fourth service
> call.  Now I don't have any RFI from that house.  So, get them to come
> back, pull off every panel and check that every optimizer has added
> ferrites on both the inputs and outputs and the wires are twisted.
>
> Randy KQ6RS
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RFI <rfi-bounces+r55stan=gmail.com at contesting.com> On Behalf Of Tony
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 9:53 PM
> To: Rfi List <rfi at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge
>
> James:
>
> Solar Edge used the same suppression techniques on my neighbors
> installation and it only reduced the noise from S-9 +15 db to S-9 which is
> still very high.
>
> I suspect that the suppression would be more effective on installations
> that emit lower-levels of RFI so it would be interesting to know how strong
> the noise was prior to the suppression being installed and what the results
> were afterward.
>
> The distance from your antenna to the solar panels is another factor so it
> would be helpful to know that as well.
>
> Congratulations.
>
> Tony -K2MO
>
>
>
> On 9/23/2020 9:29 PM, WW3S wrote:
> > My neighbor across the street had a 21 panel Solar Edge array
> > installed in May 2019, 6.5 kw I believe. I had the 18kc noise spikes,
> > and the 200kc spaced optimizer noise. After working with Paul at the
> > ARRL, who contacted the Solar Edge technical team on my behalf, Solar
> > Edge committed to fixing the problem. They were supposed to come out
> > in the spring, but of course current events prevented that. A visit
> > was scheduled for early September, but the local crew needed to
> > cancel. So I was suprised to see their van at the neighbors bright and
> > early this morning. While the panels were disconnected, I took so more
> > sdr sample screenshots, of course no noise.  The engineer from Solar
> > Edge appeared, and we had a brief chat about the course of action they
> > were going to take. replace all 21 optimizers, twist all the DC
> > wiring, and install ferrites on all the leads in to the optimizers. I
> > had to leave for an appt this afternoon, and they were gone when I got
> > back, but......it appears to be successful !!! The 200kc optimizer
> > noise certainly is gone, no notice of it at all on the sdr, and the
> > other noise seems gone as well. I only had a short time to check, but
> > it certainly seems to have knocked most, if not all, of the noise
> > down.....(insert emoji for jumping on soapbox) No matter how you feel
> > about the ARRL, they are really the only game in town as far as
> > supporting the amateur radio community with regards to RFI and
> > spectrum defense. If you can spare a few bucks, send it to them. If
> > you are not a member, think about joining.
> > _______________________________________________
> > RFI mailing list
> > RFI at contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
>
>
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-- 
*Dave - WØLEV*
*Just Let Darwin Work*