[RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge

Mon Sep 28 12:20:00 EDT 2020

It’s a little more complicated than that, Dave.  ARRL is funded to do this sort of thing and members expect that for their membership dues, ARRL will do what it takes to help ensure as much of a noise-free environment as it can. It also expects that ARRL will do what is needed to address RFI issues, both after the fact and, to the extent possible, preemptively. (This ARRL’s strong presence with the “real-world” industry via the IEEE and it EMC Society.)

I look at these individual cases as a form of “insurance.”  All hams pay into the League expecting that if there is an interference problem, they will receive some help in one way shape or form.  Also, when we do step in like this and help a company design a more noise-free product, that will help every ham that may in the future find himself/herself right next to a future Solar Edge system. The likelihood of harmful interference is already significantly reduced, through re-design of inverters and optimizers, the addition of ferrites where needed and better installation practices. (Some of our cases have been instances where good installation practice was not followed by local installers.)

We are not able to put in this much work for every individual case, although many cases have 20 to 40 hours of HQ staff time behind them.  We do put in this much work to work with a cooperating manufacturer, for all the reasons cited above.

In the case of RFI, we also do this irrespective of membership. To get the FCC to be willing to work cooperatively with ARRL, we had to agree that when amateurs contacted the FCC, it could send those cases to us to try to resolve them.  The FCC cannot be in the position of doing that only for ARRL members, so, wanting to get the FCC doing more with RFI, we do not require membership to accept cases from the FCC. Once that door was opened, it would not be logical to tell non-members that we can’t help them unless they are referred by the FCC.  One of the reasons that the Commission agreed to do this is that they know that this program minimizes the amount of time FCC staff need to spend. If we added to that burden by having hams we’d end up having to help anyway contact the FCC, the FCC would be less likely to want to continue this.  It has worked out pretty well, and some amateurs even join the League after we spend a lot of staff time helping. 😊

Ed Hare, W1RFI

From: David Eckhardt <davearea51a at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 6:17 PM
To: Hare, Ed W1RFI <w1rfi at arrl.org>
Cc: r55stan at gmail.com; Tony <73guddx at gmail.com>; Rfi List <rfi at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge

This sounds like something the ARRL and W1VLF should be paid for!!!  In my small EMC/RFI consulting business, I sure wouldn't be doing this for free!!!!!!!  Some limited up-front consulting is in order to scope the problem(s), but then, expect to pay for the knowledge and service.

Dave - WØLEV
EMC Design & Test, LLC

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:51 PM Hare, Ed W1RFI <w1rfi at arrl.org<mailto:w1rfi at arrl.org>> wrote:
We have come a long way, but still have a ways to go. Fortunately, we are dealing with a company that is holding space for all of this and willing to work towards better and better solutions.

The initial installations were pretty bad.  They simply ran a single wire between anything that was series strung, which formed a giant loop.  The FCC rules on emission control ONLY conducted emissions ON THE AC MAINS, so any noise present on that loop did not have a specific limit.  So, the early systems complied with the letter of the law.

Over time, Solar Edge has taken a number of steps, each of which resulted in quieter systems and effective correction to more systems.  This included replacing the loop with twisted pair, not in a loop configuration, the addition of common-mode chokes, improvements to the common-mode choking, redesigned optimizers, redesigned inverters and ongoing work that Solar Edge is undertaking, working with W1VLF, trying new improvements. Honestly, this is above and beyond what most companies do and I, for one, am appreciative.  This whole thing has gotten the attention of the industry in general, and W1VLF has been contacted by Generac, another solar manufacturer, looking to work with ARRL to help them design a system that will be a gold standard for low-noise operation.  Patience is paying off, albeit in steps and timelines smaller than any of us really like.,

There is also the question of what harmful interference actually is, and cases where there is S9 noise only when a beam antenna is pointed at a house is typically seen differently by regulators, industry and amateur operators.  I have said several times here, we are all better off not having a line in the sand because if FCC ever were forced to draw that line, I can say with certainty that we are not going to like it.  FCC has rarely been required to even assess an individual circumstance as harmful interference, and when it has, that assessment has been all over the map.  I do know they will consider the level of interference, the frequency occupancy, a comparison of that level to median values of man-made noise (typically S6+ on lower bands, btw...), whether the amateur can make use of frequency agility, how often it occurs, time of day and possibly even the phase of the moons orbiting Saturn.

New solutions coming out of Solar Edge have been slow, but steady, so at this point, I an awaiting the next round to result from Solar Edge working with W1VLF.  I think that this is the stage at which I or VLF may want to do a site visit to a few locations, to see just what has been done, what can be done and to possibly try new improvements.

And thanks for pointing out the value of our work.  This is just the tip of the iceberg, as ARRL staff work with manufacturers like this, with industry groups, with the FCC, with entities like the IEEE, as industry standards and practices are developed that could impact amateur radio.  As was done in this case, we don't always have a grand sweeping victory (although that is possible, too), but manage to ensure that information about amateur radio is available as standards are developed, ARRL staff and other amateurs participate in working groups and, most important, as decisions are made by industry, ARRL has a seat at the table.  We don't hold seats in the back of the room, but at the head of the table. I am the IEEE EMC Society Vice President for Standards in a volunteer capacity, and we have other amateur volunteers serving as liaisons between the EMC Society, ARRL and other industry groups.  For me, that and the things ARRL does to bring amateur radio into classrooms, into variou
 s EmComm organizations and similar work overshadows whether I think that ARRL made the right decision wrt QSL bureau costs of the rules for the Whoop and Holler contest.  Okay, soapbox off.   But if any of this does encourage people to join, include a note that explains your reasons for joining, and send a copy of that to your ARRL Division Director.  Those notes do get read and passed around, and Directors make policy decisions based on what members say is important.

Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab  Manager

-----Original Message-----
From: RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org at contesting.com<mailto:arrl.org at contesting.com>> On Behalf Of r55stan at gmail.com<mailto:r55stan at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:16 AM
To: 'Tony' <73guddx at gmail.com<mailto:73guddx at gmail.com>>; 'Rfi List' <rfi at contesting.com<mailto:rfi at contesting.com>>
Subject: Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge

If SolarEdge applies their fix and the noise is still too high, it is possible they missed one panel.  That happened with one  of my neighbors about two years ago.  They finally got it right on the fourth service call.  Now I don't have any RFI from that house.  So, get them to come back, pull off every panel and check that every optimizer has added ferrites on both the inputs and outputs and the wires are twisted.

Randy KQ6RS

-----Original Message-----
From: RFI <rfi-bounces+r55stan=gmail.com at contesting.com<mailto:gmail.com at contesting.com>> On Behalf Of Tony
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 9:53 PM
To: Rfi List <rfi at contesting.com<mailto:rfi at contesting.com>>
Subject: Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge

James:

Solar Edge used the same suppression techniques on my neighbors installation and it only reduced the noise from S-9 +15 db to S-9 which is still very high.

I suspect that the suppression would be more effective on installations that emit lower-levels of RFI so it would be interesting to know how strong the noise was prior to the suppression being installed and what the results were afterward.

The distance from your antenna to the solar panels is another factor so it would be helpful to know that as well.

Congratulations.

Tony -K2MO

On 9/23/2020 9:29 PM, WW3S wrote:
> My neighbor across the street had a 21 panel Solar Edge array
> installed in May 2019, 6.5 kw I believe. I had the 18kc noise spikes,
> and the 200kc spaced optimizer noise. After working with Paul at the
> ARRL, who contacted the Solar Edge technical team on my behalf, Solar
> Edge committed to fixing the problem. They were supposed to come out
> in the spring, but of course current events prevented that. A visit
> was scheduled for early September, but the local crew needed to
> cancel. So I was suprised to see their van at the neighbors bright and
> early this morning. While the panels were disconnected, I took so more
> sdr sample screenshots, of course no noise.  The engineer from Solar
> Edge appeared, and we had a brief chat about the course of action they
> were going to take. replace all 21 optimizers, twist all the DC
> wiring, and install ferrites on all the leads in to the optimizers. I
> had to leave for an appt this afternoon, and they were gone when I got
> back, but......it appears to be successful !!! The 200kc optimizer
> noise certainly is gone, no notice of it at all on the sdr, and the
> other noise seems gone as well. I only had a short time to check, but
> it certainly seems to have knocked most, if not all, of the noise
> down.....(insert emoji for jumping on soapbox) No matter how you feel
> about the ARRL, they are really the only game in town as far as
> supporting the amateur radio community with regards to RFI and
> spectrum defense. If you can spare a few bucks, send it to them. If
> you are not a member, think about joining.
> _______________________________________________
> RFI mailing list
> RFI at contesting.com<mailto:RFI at contesting.com>
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi

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--
Dave - WØLEV
Just Let Darwin Work