[TenTec] TECHNICAL: Wish List for ORION-III

Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP Rick at DJ0IP.de
Thu Apr 10 01:49:11 EDT 2014


EXCELLENT CARL!  Well done.

That is very encouraging indeed.
I believe the OM7 is as clean as the O2.
(another dangerous assumption)

We run our tests slightly different but I believe your test is a good
indication of what we would get if we tested it our way.

We test at a big contest station, placing all 6 stations (on all 6 contest
bands) on the air at the same time, working on their normal contest antenna
(not with grounded antenna jacks).
All antennas are within a few hundred yards of each other.
Then 5 stations QRX and one keys down in SSB mode, but with no audio.  
The other 5 stations record their S-meter reading.

Doing this we can see variances from S1, all the way up to S9 (for the
cheaper radios) in the broadband noise.
The radios generating the noise are banned from the site.
We have been running tests like this periodically for about 25 years now.

Unfortunately today it's not just the cheap JA radios that generate this
wide band noise.  
It is also some of the newer and more expensive models.  

Just to be sure I don't get accused of speaking about something I don't know
about (hi), I  will just say read the last two issues of RSGB RadCom where
two very new radios were tested by Peter Dodd.  

My information on the Flex Radio 5000 is from Rob, in a presentation that he
gave in public, and is posted on my web site.
There is a European high end transceiver currently being hyped as the best
radio on the market (hinting at "better than Flex" but without specifically
stating that), and it has similar problems.

So I assumed ALL radios SDR radios will have the problem generating
broadband noise.
The good news is, I was wrong.
The bad news is, you currently have to throw a lot of money at it to solve
the problem.
But for sure the price will come down in the next couple of years.

THANKS CARL, for clarity.

The remaining open question is to try the 6500 at a big field day site with
it and a K3 or ORION2 (but not an OM7) are transmitting on the same band at
the same time, one in SSB and one in CW, and see if their receivers
performance deteriorate due to strong "in-band" signal.  The 5000 drops more
than 20dB under these circumstances.
If the 6500 can pass that test too, then indeed its technology is going to
be tomorrow's contest radio technology.

Apologies to the group for rockin' the boat but Carl saved the day!

73 - Rick, DJ0IP
(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)


-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Moreschi
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 11:59 PM
To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
Subject: Re: [TenTec] TECHNICAL: Wish List for ORION-III

Ok this is the test I just did.

I used my Kenwood TS2000 as the receiver.

I have a 6 position rotary switch that grounds the unselected positions. 
  This switch is what I use to move my antenna farm form rig to rig.

First I transmitted a dit stream at 14.080 from my 6500 at 100 watts. 
The 6500 had an antenna connected to it through the rotary switch.  The
TS2000 antenna input was grounded.

As I transmitted, the TS2000 when tuned to the exact frequency of the
6500 showed a pegged S9+60 reading.  Moving the TS2000 up and down the band
showed a hash sound at a zero S meter reading.

I then switched in my Omni VII on the same frequency.  The Omni VII was then
connected to my antenna farm.  I transmitted the same dit stream at
100 watts at the same frequency.  Again the TS2000 showed a pegged S meter
right on the same frequency of S9+60.  I then tuned up and then the band and
heard the same hash sound.  But this time the hash was all
S5 instead of S0.

My conclusion is the 6500 is putting out at least 30 db lower band noise
than the Omni VII.

I don't have my Orion here to test with.

Carl Moreschi N4PY
58 Hogwood Rd
Louisburg, NC 27549
www.n4py.com

On 4/9/2014 4:01 PM, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that if I had the time to go through the hundreds of 
> emails Rob has sent me, I would find the one talking about this broadband
noise.
> He listed a few transceivers which surprised me.  I believe the 6500 
> was on the list.  For sure another very expensive (European) SDR 
> transceiver was on that list.
>
> For now I will just say I retract everything I said at all about the 
> 6500, AND Carl, you can find out if 5 minutes if it's true or not.
> Just do as I suggested in my previous post.
> Then we will all know.
>
> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Carl 
> Moreschi
> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 9:55 PM
> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] TECHNICAL: Wish List for ORION-III
>
> You just should not comment about things you don't now about.
>
> Carl Moreschi N4PY
> 58 Hogwood Rd
> Louisburg, NC 27549
> www.n4py.com
>
> On 4/9/2014 3:40 PM, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP wrote:
>> Carl, I'm talking about TX noise, not RX noise.
>> And I don't think I am being unfair when I repeat things which I have 
>> heard Rob Sherwood say.
>> I only clearly stated that I was not sure if the 6500 radio is like 
>> this but most of the others are.
>>
>> Do the following.
>> Set up your 6500 on an antenna and set up one of your other radios on 
>> another antenna.
>> Listen on the other rado and key the 6500 in SSB mode without 
>> speaking into the mic.
>> If it creates a broad noise across all bands, disturbing the other 
>> receiver, it's noisy.
>> This is that broadband noise I'm speaking about.
>>
>> You have a 6500, please try it and tell us.
>> I've never even seen one.
>>
>> Also, repeat the test using the Orion as the TX.
>> It will be clean, I know for sure!
>>
>> People often forget that a lot of other things factor in when you are 
>> trying to operate in a multi-TX environment.
>> If you are using the radios one at a time, they are usually just fine.
>>
>> AT THIS POINT I HOPE ROB SHOWS UP TO BAIL ME OUT (hi).
>>
>> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Carl 
>> Moreschi
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 7:28 PM
>> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] TECHNICAL: Wish List for ORION-III
>>
>> Rick,
>>
>> That's very unfair of you to accuse the 6500 of being a broad band 
>> noise generator.  I am an avid DX'er and seacrh for signals right at 
>> the noise level.  My 6500 hears ever bit as well as my Omni VII, 
>> Eagle, Argo VI, TS2000, 746Pro, Jupiter, Orion, and K3.
>>
>> The Flex 5000 and others like it were direct conversion receivers.
>> The
>> 6500 is an entirely new animal.  It takes 0 to 77 mhz at the front 
>> end and converts the entire band width to digital data.  There are 
>> band pass filters for each ham band that can be used or not used. 
>> Because the clip point is so high at S9+80 db, the band pass filters 
>> are rarely
> needed.
>> The results with this radio are truly astonishing.
>>
>> Carl Moreschi N4PY
>> 58 Hogwood Rd
>> Louisburg, NC 27549
>> www.n4py.com
>>
>> On 4/9/2014 1:50 AM, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP wrote:
>>> One last addition to the list, but then I must get on with my day job.
>>>
>>> But before I add a point, I want to confirm what someone else said 
>>> earlier and thank him for saying it.
>>> (sorry, forgot who posted it)
>>>
>>> CLEAN TRANSMITTER
>>>
>>> IMD and wideband noise are indeed very important.  ESPECIALLY the 
>>> wide band noise if you want to work multi-multi.
>>>
>>> In another thread the Merits of the Flex 6500's RX were highlighted, 
>>> but I know many similar radios have turned out to be broadband noise
>> generators.
>>> I think the 6500 is too but I DO NO KNOW FOR SURE.  IMO, again it is 
>>> the missing crystal filter that is part of the problem.
>>>
>>> Now my NEW POINT:
>>>
>>> Please improve the IP2 of the O3.
>>>
>>> I don't recall the IP2 of the O2 but in the O1 and most other 
>>> Ten-Tec transceivers, the IP2 was relatively low (about 65dB).
>>> Most of the focus for the past 30 years has been on IP3 - which is 
>>> indeed more important, but here in Europe, a weak IP2 also has 
>>> significant problems.  Specifically, when operating on 20m with a 
>>> multiband antenna that is high and in the clear, at night you can 
>>> hear a carrier on 20m, every 10 kHz.  These are shortwave broadcast 
>>> stations breaking though INSIDE the receiver, it's not their 
>>> harmonics.  Monoband antennas help reduce this effect.
>>>
>>> THE TEN-TECS WERE WORSE THAN THE (SAME CLASS) JA RADIOS IN THIS RESPECT.
>>>
>>> BTW, Stuff like an Icom 706  were utter CRAP in this respect.
>>> At night in my RV, even on the mobile antenna the carriers were 
>>> between 55 and 57 every 10 kHz.  I had to insert a preselector or 
>>> Dunestar BPF to eliminate it and be able to work 20m.
>>>
>>> PLEASE IMPROVE IP2.
>>>
>>> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>>> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TenTec mailing list
>>> TenTec at contesting.com
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>>>
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