[TOEC] SAC Landskamp contest is violating the basic fundamentals in all competition

Sun Aug 19 05:37:02 PDT 2012

Hello Sam,

Thanks for the reply and for sure fly-fishing is also a very nice and
relaxing activity.

Share opinions with you that we need to market SAC (both in SAC-countries
and globally). Has been done VERY actively since 2006 and onwards, with
some difference in efficiency depending on available time and also if the
organizing country requested this from volonteers. Result has been, I would
dare to say, excellent... See statistics.

Another thing that was a red flag for development of SAC, was to fix the
backlog of awards and plaques. This backlog was in some cases 16 years.
Fixed at least up till year 2010. Do not know the situation with awards for
2011, apart from the sending out of special trophies, sponsored by
individuals and clubs. Result from cleaning up in back log has been
excellent. SAC no longer has the reputation of the contest that never sends
out awards and plaques.

Educational efforts from national leagues. I have pretty good conscience
about this too when SSA are concerned. A constant flow of information has
been sent out in QTC, via TOEC, SSA Forum and in emails to clubs all over
Sweden and to individuals. The information has been a combination of
marketing and teaching (giving basic information and more advanced
operating hints).

Club activities have been promoted in the same way. Several clubs have made
initiatives to activate SAC with new members. I would say, this could have
been promoted even more, but sometimes I even have the feeling that too
much of promotion has created some sort of vacuum and people kind of say:
We have heard that so many times and we have contributed, should we do that
yet another year...  Here we have the difference between Finnish SISU and
Swedish Jantelag... In Finland, it is not a bad thing to excel or to fight
for first place. Sweden (and other nations in Scandinavia) have a more
modest approach to efforts like this. Can we change it?  I do not know, it
depends on the attitude and desire in general. Many people have many
different hobbies. Some of them considered more important than contesting.
This is a fact, and we can not change it all that much.

Tutorials on software and equipment?  I wonder if you could develop that a
little more.  What else do we need to do other than what we have done above?

The problem in SM is actually not so much the new operators. It is to
succeed in getting old foxes to make an effort. We have 50 stations in
Sweden that either are not active at all in SAC - or very sparsely
activated. This is the biggest problem compared to OH.

Some more comments on your view that Team competition and Online scoring
does not add to the popularity of the contest...  Indeed online scoring is
a very stimulation addition to increase efforts. If I was in the Swedish
team, I would for sure look ALL the time on the competitors from
Scandinavia and realize if I had to increase my efforts or to see if I was
ahead of them. If I was not in the team, I would make sure to do everything
to beat the stations in my category in Sweden and also in Scandinavia, but
following them on the online score boards. I am convinced that has a very
positive effect.

It is good that you thing LA would beat us in the team competition... If I
look on statistics and station quality/operator skills, I may have a
somewhat different opinion :)  That OH would beat us is a bigger risk, and
now we have a chance to see who is right.

And what if LA beat us?  Would that be a thrill for me as an operator from
the outside? I could care less who of the countries win, but of course my
heart is still Swedish... but I for sure work ANY station I can and
therefore it is not interesting who wins the Team Competition. I am only
concerned that there is an overall high activity of Scandinavians, and this
will be reduced with your proposal. Interest will completely disappear for
the traditional landskamp, and I can tell you for sure, many
Non-Scandinavians would have worked SAC for the last time if the
traditional landskamp was replaced with your proposed variant.

About the rest, I also do not agree at all...

24 hours is a perfect duration of the contest. 12 hours will decrease total
amount of available QSOs for Non Scandinavians

RDXC is popular thanks to reasons mentioned befoore and that Russians spent
tens of thousands of dollars per year for the result book, and have huge
amount of people who sponsor the plaques. It is also a worldwide contest
where everyone works everyone. Contestisng as such is gaining popularity
and this automatically affect worldwide contests like CQWW, RDXC, WPX and
others. With SAC, development before our activity from 2006 showed
stagnation. It does not anymore. Scandinavian cup and efforts from mainly
SM and OH, as well as from LA the year they organized, booasted
participation in SAC. About OZ, I still have my hopes, but success in
promoting contesting in a country is directly proportional to the activity
of those people who have the responsibility... SM hams can not be
considered the best ones for boosting OZ activity. This is the tast of OZ
contest organiztion...

So all in all, even with open eyes to your ideas, I still maintain the
opinion that the traditional SAC Landskap is what increases the interest
for SAC. Team competition will fill a gap, but not change the world too
much.

73 de RM2D (RA/SM6LRR), Mats

PS  What we need is people who love contesting and SAC, and who most
important of all, are ready to actively invest time and efforts in
promoting SAC in the own country or internationally. To sit on reflector
and with negative approach claim that increase in participation is a result
of other things than efforts and Cup, is depriving many individuals for the
attention they deserve for hard work!

2012/8/19 SM3PZG <sm3pzg at lsg.se>

> Made a response to SM5AJV 15/8 but forgot CC to reflector, have been
> occupied with much more important things... like fly-fishing for salmon and
> trout. Here is the copy.
>
> Many thanks for the response.
>
> I think the driving force is the fun and thrill of contesting, not sending
> in a handful of qsos to a Landskamp Cup. To increase the number of
> operators
> you need to do the following,
>
> 1. Marketing effort of the sport in all Scandinavian countries.
> 2. Educational efforts from the national leagues.
> 3. Club activity to introduce new hams to the sport of contesting.
> 4. Tutorials on software, equipment, operation techniques.
>
> Sending in a handful of Qs to the Cup comes way down on the list.
>
> No I was not aware of the team contest. This looks like something
> in-between
> from what I suggested. If you draw a line in the scoreboard of the 2 top
> scores instead of the 5 top scores in each category you obtain the same
> objective as the team trial with less effort. You would not have to choose
> teams and stations you would automatically get the top scores to represent
> the country.
>
> The real time scores and real time video and audio sounds nice but I assume
> contesters are to participate in the contest, not sit and watch other
> contesters run a contest? This would affect the Cup result. If this has the
> objective to reach new and young hams it would be better to stream live
> video and audio from a large club with many young operators and a lot of
> modern equipment.
>
> With my suggestions of including only the 5 top scores for the Cup I think
> LA would beat us and we would end up on third place. This would make LA
> happy and maybe trigger OZ to try to do the same. The focus would shift
> from
> beating OH to NOT to be beaten by LA and OZ witch I think would be worse
> for
> many hams.
>
> Yes the activity has gone up a lot and that is very positive but I don’t
> think its because of the Cup. The RUDX has a much better statistics even
> with SM hams and that contest has no Cup. However it has clear and fair
> rules, a great website, professional staff and very fast publishing of
> results and sending of awards.
>
> I also feel 24h is way to long for many "normal" hams and this goes for all
> contests. If you cant manage the full 24h you will not make a 100% effort
> and just make a few hours of fun. My personal view is more contest should
> have a 12h entry. Free time today is to valuable for people in the middle
> of
> life with family, house and friends.
>
> Still the basic fundamentals of competition must be obeyed, if not you end
> up same as when you play with small children and all must be winners and
> happy. Older children immediately notice when something is unfair and
> protest, if rules don’t change they refuse to participate in the game and
> go
> and do something else (like OZ hams).
>
> 73/Sam SM3PZG
>
>
> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- From: Mats Strandberg
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 9:11 AM
> To: SM3PZG
> Cc: TOEC
> Subject: Re: [TOEC] SAC Landskamp contest is violating the basic
> fundamentals in all competition
>
>
> Det blev så tyst på debatten hade jag tänkt att säga...  tryckfelsnisse var
> framme :)
>
> 73 de Mats
>
>
>
>
>
> 2012/8/16 Mats Strandberg <sm6lrr at gmail.com>
>
> Hej Sam,
>>
>> Var bara litet nyfiken om Du hade några invändningar mot de svar som kom?
>> Det blev s[ tyst p[ debbaten...  Om jag tolkade avslutningen korrekt
>> önskade Du seriösa svar som bemötte ditt inlägg. Jag försökte leverera ett
>> sådant, men du kanske inte bedömde det som seriöst nog? :)
>>
>> 73 de Mats RM2D
>>
>>  2012/8/14 SM3PZG <sm3pzg at lsg.se>
>>
>> Hello everybody,
>>>
>>> I feel that the Landskamp in the SAC contest is violating the basic
>>> fundamentals in all competition and that is opponents should from start
>>> be
>>> equal in strength to make the competition as fair as possible. This
>>> fundamental fault just gives the contest a ridicules on unserious
>>> impression
>>> and something not to take seriously.
>>>
>>> In all individual sports great effort is taken to match opponents
>>> according
>>> to skills, experience and strength to make a fair match. Same in team
>>> competitions. In competitions between nations every nation sends their
>>> best
>>> players and they are proud the represent their country and of course make
>>> a
>>> 100% effort and go the distance.
>>>
>>> With the Olympic games in mind we don’t send ALL active swimmers or ALL
>>> active runners to the competition, we only send the ones that are
>>> qualified
>>> and that can make a honorable effort.  Same in the Finnkamp only first,
>>> second and third place count for points.
>>>
>>> In Sweden all hams are encourage to make just a few qsos and send in the
>>> log
>>> just to beat the Finns. It doesn't matter that everyone knows we have
>>> many
>>> more hams then OH not to mention OZ and LA. If we have 100 logs and the
>>> Finns only 40 logs and the Danish send 20 logs and the Norwegians send 10
>>> logs should we be proud to win over the Finns? Should we be proud to beat
>>> OZ
>>> and LA? Why are OZ and LA not mention in pre-contest discussion? How does
>>> OZ
>>> and LA feel about this Landskamp? It simply does not make sense and looks
>>> ridicules.
>>>
>>> A simple solution to the problem would be easy, just DRAW a LINE in the
>>> scoreboard. For example the SOAB category only the TOP 5 stations count
>>> in
>>> the Landskamp. This would have 3 very big benefits. First the
>>> competitions
>>> would be FAIR, second OZ and LA would be able to compete on the same
>>> terms
>>> as OH and SM. Third this would open up for a qualifying competition
>>> within
>>> each country to be one of the five stations to represent their nation and
>>> would most likely make more stations go the limit and make a better
>>> effort.
>>> Of course the complete scoreboard should be publish but results only
>>> count
>>> inside each nation.
>>>
>>> The only discussions the contest committee would have is to were to draw
>>> the
>>> lines in each category. The rule itself would be very easy to implement.
>>>
>>> So this is my suggestions on how to make the SAC and the Landskamp a fair
>>> and equal contest for all Scandinavian countries and a contest to take
>>> seriously. And who knows this rule might even make TF activate 5
>>> stations.
>>>
>>> Looking forward to some serious responses
>>>
>>> 73/Sam     SM3PZG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
>>> From: SM5AJV
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 10:01 AM
>>> To: Mats Strandberg
>>> Cc: SM5AJV ; toec at contesting.com
>>> Subject: Re: [TOEC] Val av lag till SAC 2012 National Team Contesting
>>>
>>> Tack för ett bra förslag!
>>>
>>> Jag föreslår följande deadlines för intresseanmälan.
>>>
>>>
>>> CW:  3/9
>>> SSB: 1/10
>>>
>>> Intresseanmälan kan skickas till mig via email.
>>>
>>> Finns det någon hugad, som kan tänka sig ingå i den informella
>>> kommittén? Någon i SSA styrelse + någon ytterligare?
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Ingemar SM5AJV
>>>
>>>
>>> > Hej Ingemar!
>>> >
>>> > Uttagningen borde enligt mitt menande gå till enligt följande:
>>> >
>>> > Gör reklam för den nya parallelltävligen och uppmana alla som önskar
>>> delta
>>> > i någon av de fyra klasserna (uppdelat på båda helgerna) anmäla sitt
>>> > intresse. Ange deadline för intresseanmälan.
>>> >
>>> > Skapa en liten informell kommitte som sedan tillsammans argumenterar >
>>> och
>>> > röstar fram det lag som vi ska tävla med.
>>> >
>>> > Kriterier för urvalet bör baseras på tävlingsmässiga grunder och
>>> > målsättningen måste vara att vi BÅDE ska vinna landskampen och
>>> > lagtävligen.
>>> > Alltså, stationer med bäst föresättningar och mest motivation att vinna
>>> > för
>>> > SM väljs.
>>> >
>>> > Hur kan man avgöra detta?
>>> >
>>> > Kombination av:
>>> >
>>> > 1. Tidigare placering på 10 i skandinaviska topplistan senaste åren i
>>> SAC
>>> > 2. Stationsprestanda
>>> > 3. Operatörsskicklighet
>>> > 4. Geografisk placering (beror ju ganska mycket vilken typ av
>>> konditioner
>>> > vi får givetvis)
>>> >
>>> > Genom att tydligt förklara att detta är en alternativ tävling i
>>> > tävligenen,
>>> > kvarstår fortfarande den traditionella tävlingen som den viktigaste. I
>>> den
>>> > är ALLA resultat värdefulla och med den motiveringen bör man kunna både
>>> > köra en elitsatning i Teamtävlingen och en folkrörelse i den vanliga
>>> > Scandinavian Cup.
>>> >
>>> > 73 de LRR, Mats
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Den 10 augusti 2012 10:45 skrev SM5AJV <sm5ajv at qrq.se>:
>>> >
>>> >> Hej!
>>> >>
>>> >> Inför höstens SAC har vi, som annonserats tidigare, introducerat ett
>>> >> försök i "National Team Contesting". Reglerna för detta finns på
>>> >> http://sactest.net/blog/rules/**national-team-contesting-**
>>> trial-sac-2012/<http://sactest.net/blog/rules/national-team-contesting-trial-sac-2012/>
>>> >>
>>> >> Hur lagen i respektive land väljs är upp till varje nationellt >>
>>> förbund.
>>> >>
>>> >> Ett lag består av 6 stationer:
>>> >>
>>> >>  2 Single Op Multi Band High Power
>>> >>  2 Single Op Multi Band Low Power
>>> >>  1 Single Op Multi Band Low Power Tribander/Single Element
>>> >>  1 Multi Op Single TX entrant
>>> >>
>>> >> För att kunna delta behöver man ha en uppkoppling till cqcontest.ru.
>>> >> Hur detta skall gå till i detalj, kommer SAC CC presentera senare.
>>> >> Men i princip är det:
>>> >>
>>> >> * Realtime scoring, d.v.s logprogrammet rapporterar summary sheet till
>>> >>   cqcontest.ru med jämna mellanrum. Se vidare http://cqcontest.ru
>>> >>   där instruktioner finns hur man gör i respektive loggprogram.
>>> >>
>>> >> * Realtime video/audio. På cqcontest.ru kan man också ansluta
>>> strömmande
>>> >>   video och ljud och "åskådaren" kan välja två stationer att följa på
>>> >> skärmen.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Men, hur vill vi att uttagningen av Sveriges lag skall gå till?
>>> >> Fritt fram att tycka till här på reflektorn!
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> 73
>>> >> Ingemar SM5AJV
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ______________________________**_________________
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>>> >> TOEC at contesting.com
>>> >> http://lists.contesting.com/**mailman/listinfo/toec<http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/toec>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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