Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 3/30/2018 1:12 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
 > What FT8 will bring is the ability to use daytimes on 160 and 80 for
 > reliable distance communications with particular people with real
 > communications, like texting over the phone or email.

FT8 is not a "conversational mode" and can't (absent an internet
connection) be used for texting.

 > I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster
 > communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and
 > solar charged batteries are all there is.

FT8 has a limited protocol - it is not useful *AT ALL* for passing
emergency communications other than "are you there"/"yes I'm here"
type messages.  This is also why - unless you're willing to reduce
contest exchanges to callsign and grid (4 character) square - FT8
is useless for contesting.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/30/2018 1:12 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> The awards usually come with CW, SSB and digital as categories.
> 
> What I see is FT8 displacing RTTY for awards, but not for contesting.
> 
> What FT8 will bring is the ability to use daytimes on 160 and 80 for
> reliable distance communications with particular people with real
> communications, like texting over the phone or email. Just exactly how far
> that is on 160 at high noon yet to be determined.
> 
> I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster
> communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and
> solar charged batteries are all there is. There would probably need to be
> an asymmetrical FT8 where volume is 97% outbound. The platform seems to
> have endless possibilities and I think the fellows will get there.
> 
> 73, Guy
> 
> *--------------------------------*
> *Lowering SWR does *
> *   not *
> *   predict performance.*
> 
> *A dummy load, *
> *   with its perfect SWR, *
> *   is a worse antenna *
> *   than a light bulb. *
> 
> *First discern and remove *
> *   the loss in low band*
> *   antenna systems.*
> *----------------------------------*
> 
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Tim Shoppa <tshoppa at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I’ve been having a lot of fun with FT8 but it certainly has not replaced
>> CW for my DXing.
>>
>> I do 80M-specific DX Marathon each year. So far this year I have 107 80M
>> DXCCs worked - 104 on CW and 3 on SSB. And none that I needed FT8 or RTTY
>> for.
>>
>> I will agree, if a guy doesn’t do CW, FT8 is probably going to be a big
>> part of his DX diet.
>>
>> DXpedition rates are fun to listen to when they are doing 200+ an hour.
>> Right now FT8 (non-DXpedition mode) tops out at maybe 25 an hour when there
>> are no problems. The instant you have any sort of sequencing problem, the
>> rate can drop to 2 an hour. The experimental FT8 DXpedition mode may
>> alleviate (through parallel ongoing Qs) morning be guys sequencing problem
>> from bringing everything to a halt.
>>
>> Tim N3QE
>>
>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 11:10 AM, <daraymond at iowatelecom.net> <
>> daraymond at iowatelecom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas).
>> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
>> meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
>> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
>> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
>> and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
>> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively
>> little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is
>> disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.           73. .
>> .Dave, W0FLS
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: k1zm--- via Topband
>>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
>>> To: topband at contesting.com
>>> Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is
>> Upon us!
>>>
>>> Hello Gang
>>> I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but
>> I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right
>> before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible
>> implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
>>>
>>> I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current
>> dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real
>> trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so -
>> so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make
>> quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very
>> much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
>>>
>>> So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion
>> on Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its
>> possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
>>>
>>> On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in
>> his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M
>> and me here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have
>> been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in
>> there calling among the NA stations.
>>>
>>> About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but
>> QRNN on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know
>> he did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over
>> ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU
>> qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
>>>
>>> The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was
>> going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials
>> following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of
>> FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
>>>
>>> Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is
>> fully conceived including:
>>>
>>> 1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required
>> QSO elements
>>> 2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX
>> (in this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
>>> 3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be
>> possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any
>> dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY.
>>>
>>> So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m
>> and I managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
>>>
>>> Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to
>> operate this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone
>> reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition
>> mode uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things
>> exactly right - or it just does not function as one might expect
>> traditional FT8 to function in order to complete qso's.
>>>
>>> Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a
>> couple of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay
>> close enough attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game
>> to have a good shot as he went into daylight on his side.
>>>
>>> So what is going on here exactly?  And why did I choose to make this
>> post to Topband?
>>>
>>> The answer is fairly simple and stems from what I observed this past
>> summer on 6M during the Sporadic E season.  I happen to like to work 6M E
>> during the summer and was all set around the end of June for what I hoped
>> would be a great E season on 6M CW into Europe.  I worked a couple of
>> stations on CW in late June but during the first or second week of July,
>> K1JT released the production version of FT8 and almost immediately everyone
>> realized its potential (particularly those in the Mid and Far Western USA)
>> - where it was immediately called a "GAME CHANGER" by K7JA and others on
>> the Left Coast.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well - it SURELY WAS A GAME CHANGER - because I did not hear a single CW
>> DX station out of Europe on 6M for the rest of the summer E season after
>> that - everyone had qsy'ed to 50.313 to work FT8 - because it WORKED so
>> well on 6M - even on E skip paths.  And since I did not have FT8 capability
>> - I was TOTALLY SHUT OUT and had NO 6M E season of Dx'ing - BUMMER!
>>>
>>>
>>> So how does this apply to Topband?  Pls read on.....
>>>
>>>
>>> Last night was NIGHT 3 into NA on the lowbands from 7Q7EI - and Norbert
>> was back - first on 160m on 1836 from about 0130z - until around 0320z -
>> again on FT8 - in dx'pedition mode.  By now, most of us had downloaded the
>> dx'pedition mode version of WSJT-x and had sort of figured out how to do
>> the parameter settings correctly - so quite a few QSO's ensued.
>>>
>>>
>>> I happened to be one of the lucky ones on 160M - there were quite a few
>> others.
>>>
>>>
>>> Watching my screen though (along with KAZ K8KS) it was clear that K1JT
>> still has some clean up work to do to refine the dx'pedition mode software
>> - because the promise of 300 qso's per hour is not yet possible - but I
>> think the throughput rate will one day improve materially.  (:Last night
>> the throughput was SO SLOW that some suggested to Norbert that he stop
>> using dx'pedition mode in favor of the more reliable current release of FT8
>> that is on the air today.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Norbert also elected to stay on FT8 - despite many requests from those
>> constrained by CW only capability to move over to CW mode - so those
>> without FT8 basically sat on the sidelines last night watching all of this
>> transpire.  My thoughts at the time were - "Here we go again!  This is 6M E
>> season "DEJA VUE all over again - the 6M E migration to Ft8 was now
>> happening all over again - but this time on 160M - and it suggests a real
>> possibility of it becoming the choice of major dxpeditions going forward -
>> meaning - FT8 is likely to be used on 160m far more regularly going forward
>> and  CW mode utilized much less perhaps (maybe!).  My crystal ball is no
>> better than yours - but if FT8 dx'pedition mode gets perfected by K1JT and
>> becomes more EFFICIENT one day than CW mode - you can be SURE that it will
>> become very popular and it will get used far more (at the expense of CW) by
>> the rarer Dx'peditions when they choose to QSY to Topband!
>>>
>>>
>>> You can take that to the BANK!
>>>
>>> At one point, Norbert who was on CHAT all night long - lamented some of
>> the comments he was seeing by others on CHAT.  Basically, while he was more
>> than courteous, it was clear that he felt like "HEY!  I am the FOX
>> here.....I get to choose to operate whatever mode I think will work - and
>> those sitting in their comfortable chairs back at home (and not sitting in
>> the heat here on the shores of Lake Malawi - really do not get to decide
>> this.!!  Again, I am the FOX here.......)  Basically, Norbert was right on
>> here - IMHO....
>>>
>>> Some more observations:
>>>
>>> 1) Experimental FT8 qso's are not completing reliably as they should -
>> at least not yet all the time - for example:  K8KZ was clearly seeing 7Q7EI
>> calling him on his screen for at least 20 mins before the software linked
>> up at  each end to sent the RR73 message - the signal that the QSO was
>> complete.
>>>
>>> And Norbert was clearly "seeing" K8KS for the same 20 mins - before they
>> linked up to finalize and log the QSO.  I had similar problems on 160M when
>> working Norbert - so it is clear that K1JT has some more work to do,. But,
>> we do have to realize that this is still only a BETA/experimental release -
>> and YES - it does have some glitches and bugs yet to be ironed out.
>>>
>>> But it does work (after a fashion) and I am sure it will get better -
>> and WHEN IT DOES become a fully functional PRODUCTION RELEASE, I do think
>> we will witness some MAJOR operating changes going forward when working
>> future DX'peditions and even when casual dx'ing on 160M - which is
>> happening every night on 1840 today.  I am seeing Wal W8LRL most every
>> night - and am dabbling in it myself as is my XYL Miriam VY2HH - so old
>> dawgs (like me) are being forced (sometimes kicking and screaming) to learn
>> new tricks.
>>>
>>> One final comment:
>>>
>>> This all took place on 1836 and I think on 3569 down on 80m these past
>> few nights.  Traditional FT8 (according to the ARRL 160m bandplan) takes
>> place on 1840.  So I am hopeful that the migration to the new mode
>> continues to take place in an orderly fashion because FT8 and CW really
>> will not mix well - should FT8 start showing up below 1830 that will cause
>> problems  - (just my opinion) - but reality I think.
>>>
>>> So - I think that is the lot for now.  Not much more to report - but for
>> sure - "A change is coming to Dx'ing on 160M - there is NO DOUBT about it -
>> I do not think this is a passing FAD.  "DIGI-WIGI" or its other name
>> "JINGLE BELLS" looks like it is here to stay!!!
>>>
>>> 73 JEFF  K1ZM/VY2ZM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff Briggs
>>> DXing on the Edge: The Thrill of 160 Meters
>>> Available worldwide through BookBaby, Array Solutions, DX Engineering,
>> Royal Society of Great Britain, & Amazon
>>>
>>>
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