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Re: [TowerTalk] Vacuum tube 100 years old today

To: "Bill VanAlstyne, W5WVO" <w5wvo@cybermesa.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Vacuum tube 100 years old today
From: Gary Schafer <garyschafer@comcast.net>
Reply-to: garyschafer@comcast.net
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:32:14 -0500
List-post: <mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
The 3 dimensional effect has little to do whether you use a tube or solid state amp. It has more to do with how the speakers are placed in the room and the quality of them. A system that can maintain good phase relationships is most important. Moving the speakers only a few inches can make a dramatic change in the effects as reflections from all the walls come into play.

I think that someone awhile back mentioned adding distortion to recordings. That may be done at times I am not sure. After all guitarist often severely distort the sound with heavy clipping. Sounds like crap to me.
But in the process of digital recording additional noise is introduced, called dithering, to increase the resolution of the digital recording process.


Blind tests are not without fault too. Often the levels are intentionally ,or unintentionally, not set exactly the same. That can make a big difference in perception.
Also any suggestion while part way through the test such as "can you hear the depth of that drum" can make a difference in perception.


Another factor especially when comparing tube to solid state gear is that impedance's are at times greatly different from one to the other. Depending on the associated equipment it may or may not be a factor.

73
Gary K4FMX


Bill VanAlstyne, W5WVO wrote:
This is all off-topic, of course, but so fascinating... Hopefully we'll all be
forgiven.  :-)  I once had the opportunity, at an audiophile friend's home, to
do a blindfolded side-by-side comparison of two audio amplifiers he was testing,
one a recent solid-state design that was very well-regarded in the audiophile
community, the other a hollow-state rig, also brand new and equally
well-regarded, producing approximately the same amount of power. Everything else
in the test was identical -- music (on virgin vinyl, of course), turntable,
preamp (tube, of course), and speakers.

And yes, I could hear the difference. The tube amplifier was better. It was very
subtle, but clearly identifiable: The solid-state amplifier produced a
beautiful, clear, warm, 2-D separation of the musicians on the "sound stage",
but the tube amplifier went one step better and produced a sense of 3-D depth
that I could actually hear. The drummer, for example, instead of being located
"there", could be heard to be located "there, and back about ten feet". I didn't
know which amplifier was producing which test until afterwards.

Is this a function of overtones, or harmonics, or what? I don't think anybody
really knows. But don't scoff at those who say they can hear a difference this
subtle. Been there, done that.  :-)

Bill / W5WVO


Al N6TA wrote:


I work for a guy who makes serious efforts trying to get the 'truest'
audio.
He talks of the 'infetesimal perceptible' that needs to be considered
when
evaluating the quality of an audio recording and its reproduction to
sound
waves.  His CD player is a hybrid tube and solid state unit that
costs over $5,000.  Imagine the rest of the components in the chain...

-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces@contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Gene Smar
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 13:32
To: Jim Miller; towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Vacuum tube 100 years old today

TT:

    There was an interesting (to me) article in the August 1998
issue of
IEEE Spectrum magazine about the continued use of vacuum tubes in
high-end
audio equipment and musical instrument amplifiers.  The article's main
thesis is that tubes provide "better-sounding" audio at high levels
than
could (or still can) be achieved by solid-state audio processing
circuitry.
Apparently there are still some applications besides QRO microwaves
for
which such hollow-state devices are better suited.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Miller" <JimMiller@STL-Online.Net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Vacuum tube 100 years old today



I was in missile class in the Air Force in 1963 and the lab and
course was entirely in tubes even though the missile was entirely in
transistors.

The


adaptation was very short (minutes, maybe and hour) and said that
transistors worked like tubes except at lower voltages and power
levels. That was all there was to transistors !!!  Not bad really
for a class that hadn't been rewritten yet (and that may have been
all the instructor knew

at


that time).

73, de Jim KG0KP

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Nielsen" <nielsen@oz.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Vacuum tube 100 years old today



On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 11:28:11AM -0500, Tom Rauch wrote:

On Nov. 16, 1904 Fleming patented the Fleming valve. The
vacuum tube is 100 years old today (exactly 46 years to the
day older than I am).

I was an electrical engineering student in the late 60's.
The electronics lab stock room was full of tubes and
sockets, and our benches had 300 volt power supplies. About
50% of our inventory and study was tube related. I built a
complete 500 watt HF station, receiver and transmitter, from
stock room parts in my spare time. Every component necessary
was in the stock room. From a textbook I still use,
"Electronic Amplifier Circuits" McGraw-Hill Electrical
Engineering Series 1961, comes the following quote:

"For many applications a relative newcomer, the transistor,
is replacing vacuum tube types because of the greater
inherent reliability, lower power consumption, and smaller
size. However, the complete replacement of the tube by the
transistor does not seem likely, for the latter has
shortcomings at high temperatures and high radiation
intensities and in the production of high power at high
frequencies. "

About ten years later I received a call asking if I wanted
any of those old tubes, tube related books, or HV bench
power supplies before they hit the dumpster.


I was taking a senior physics class in electronics at UCLA in 1962 and we spent some time studying vacuum tube circuits. The professor was asked if we were going to learn anything about transistors and replied that he had never studied them himself, since he felt that they were a fad which wouldn't last.

73,
Bob N7XY
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"Wireless

Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.

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"Wireless
Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041
with any
questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.

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_______________________________________________

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"Wireless Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free,
1-800-333-9041 with any questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.

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_______________________________________________


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