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Re: [Amps] FW: Decent HF directional coupler for RF power meas.

To: <garyschafer@comcast.net>, "'Phil & Debbie Salas'" <dpsalas@tx.rr.com>, <amps@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] FW: Decent HF directional coupler for RF power meas.
From: "Phil LaMarche" <plamarc1@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:50:02 -0500
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>
May I suggest the LP 100.  It's truly an accurate test instrument.

Phil 


Philip LaMarche 
LaMarche Enterprises, Inc.
www.instantgourmetspices.com

www.w9dvm.com 
800-395-7795 pin 02 
727-944-3226 
FAX 727-937-8834 
NASFT 30210 

K3  #1605

CCA 98  00827
CRA 1701

W9DVM 



-----Original Message-----
From: amps-bounces@contesting.com [mailto:amps-bounces@contesting.com] On
Behalf Of Gary Schafer
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 12:46 PM
To: 'Phil & Debbie Salas'; amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] FW: Decent HF directional coupler for RF power meas.

Hi Phil,

I too have been obsessing about accurate power measurements over the last
year or so. 
I made a coupler somewhat like that used in the typical wattcmeters, a
torpid with the center conductor of the power cable passing thru it and this
is placed right at the input to a 1kw bird load. But instead of going to a
diode detector it feeds a small resistor load and then an attenuator then
that goes to the power meter. I have a Boonton that is similar to the HP
436. I seem to get fair results with it but have not frequency compensated
it yet.

I thought that making a resistor divider right at the input to the dummy
load might work rather well to, making the whole affair into a high power
attenuator. With the rather high value of resistor required to tap into the
50 ohm line it should not upset the visor too much.
I didn't have the proper value resistors on hand so it is on the back
burner.

However I found that measuring attenuators and getting different power
meters and sources to agree is not simple. I thought that if I could get two
or three things to agree with different test setups that I would be in the
ballpark. Not easy.

I have been thinking about the LP100 or one of the other wattcmeters but at
this point I don't have high confidence in any. What have you found?

73
Gary  K4FMX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil & Debbie Salas [mailto:dpsalas@tx.rr.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:11 PM
> To: garyschafer@comcast.net; amps@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [Amps] FW: Decent HF directional coupler for RF power meas.
> 
> The VNA uncertainty is less at lower attenuation levels.  Supposedly 
> better than 0.1dB at 50 dB attenuation.  And obviously it is zero at 0 
> dB (straight thru coax) as that is where it is calibrated,  The Array 
> Solutions test set-up uses a 30 dB pad so that 100 watts looks like 
> 100 milliwatts on their HP436A.  Anyway, .The PowerMaster is 
> supposedly within 5% accuracy across the full range (not just at full 
> power for a given element like the
> Bird) -
> and that's what the ARRL lab tests showed as well.
> 
> I don't know why, but I've been obscessed with measuring power 
> accurately for awhile.  I actually feel pretty good about measurements 
> made with a carefully built detector.  I use a 1N5711 and SMD 
> capacitors in the detector, and use this across a 50 ohm load that has 
> over 40dB return loss.
> And then I built a precision voltage reference (0.5%) just to check my 
> digital voltmeter.
> 
> I need to spend more time on the air.
> 
> Phil - AD5X
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Schafer" <garyschafer@comcast.net>
> To: "'Phil & Debbie Salas'" <dpsalas@tx.rr.com>; <amps@contesting.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:01 PM
> Subject: RE: [Amps] FW: Decent HF directional coupler for RF power meas.
> 
> 
> > While that accuracy may be good for general tasks around the ham 
> > shack
> it
> > comes no where near what is needed to do any kind of decent
> calibration.
> > When changing from 60 to 70 db attenuators and getting .2 db
> difference I
> > would wonder what the error would be at different levels.
> >
> > If you don't know that your attenuator is any better than .5 db and
> then
> > you
> > add that error to the calibration source you are not any closer than 
> > a bird wattmeter again.
> >
> > 73
> > Gary  K4FMX
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: amps-bounces@contesting.com [mailto:amps-
> bounces@contesting.com]
> >> On Behalf Of Phil & Debbie Salas
> >> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 6:10 PM
> >> To: amps@contesting.com
> >> Subject: [Amps] FW: Decent HF directional coupler for RF power meas.
> >>
> >> Good point.  I just emailed W5BIG (the VNA designer) with this
> question.
> >> He
> >> said that the VNA2180 has been lab-tested with precision calibrated 
> >> attenuators.  The VNA2180 was off a maximum of 0.3 dB with a 60 dB 
> >> attenuator, and a maximumn of 0.5 dB with a 70 dB attenuator 
> >> through
> 140
> >> mhz.
> >>
> >> Phil - AD5X
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: amps-bounces at contesting.com [mailto:amps-bounces at 
> >> > contesting.com] On Behalf Of Phil & Debbie Salas
> >> > Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 12:32 PM
> >> > To: amps at contesting.com
> >> > Subject: [Amps] FW: Decent HF directional coupler for RF power
> meas.
> >> >
> >> > "The cable and attenuator errors can be known without error, all 
> >> > he
> >> has
> >> > to
> >> > do is pay a
> >> > cal laboratory to characterize each at the test frequencies."
> >> >
> >> > I've watched the Array Solutions guys calibrate their PowerMaster 
> >> > couplers.
> >> > They use their VNA2180 to accurately measure their cables and 
> >> > attenuators.
> >> > So the only inaccuracy is the tolerance of the HP power meter.
> >> >
> >> > Phil - AD5X
> >> >
> >>
> >> There is also the inaccuracy of the vna that has to be added in also.
> >> They
> >> don't say what that is.
> >>
> >> 73
> >> Gary  K4FMX
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Amps mailing list
> >> Amps@contesting.com
> >> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
> >
> >

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