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Re: [Amps] Clipperton-L parasitic suppressors

To: Alek Petkovic <vk6apk@bigpond.com>, Carl <km1h@jeremy.mv.com>, Amps <amps@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Clipperton-L parasitic suppressors
From: Dave White <mausoptik@btinternet.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 00:16:41 +0100
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>
Interestingly when I asked W6MTF at Eimac for some advice regarding parasitic 
suppression when I was first building my 3CX3000 amp a decade or so ago, he 
immediately advised me not to bother with suppression - just connect the anode 
choke to the anode with whatever comes to hand, but keep it short.  I never 
asked why - though it's occurred to me since to wonder how he knew that I'd 
have no problems. Maybe I'll ask him.....

Isn't the real cause that the tube and/or circuit has Q at VHF? So isn't the 
'cure' that we try to lower the Q at VHF whilst trying to keep Q at the 
fundametal that we're interested in?  It may be a moot point as to whether 
we're treating cause or effect.  Search me, mate.  That's too deep a question 
at this time on a Saturday night after a few glasses.

In my 4-1000A amp I experimented with all sorts of suppressors but eventually 
settled on three paralleled 100R resistors with a couple of twists of some 4mm 
copper wire that fell out of a junk box.  I can explain how it works (I think) 
but couldn't predict what would work.  Where does the fine line lie between 
science and voodoo?  If there are too many variables to predict what will work, 
so we just try stuff till it works then is that science or voodoo? 

Cheers 
OILy

-----Original Message-----
From: "Alek Petkovic" <vk6apk@bigpond.com>
To: "Carl" <km1h@jeremy.mv.com>; "Amps" <amps@contesting.com>
Sent: 13/03/2010 23:06
Subject: Re: [Amps] Clipperton-L parasitic suppressors

At 08:52 AM 13/03/2010, Carl wrote:
>Lots of things work Alek, there are enough poorly designed amps on 
>the market that prove that.
>
>I prefer to attack the problem; and not the symptom and lose a few 
>hundred watts on 10M to heat.




That's gotta be the "Classic Line Of The Week" mate.

I mean what is a parasitic suppressor? What is any parasitic 
suppressor? Is it not something that "attacks the symptom and not the 
problem"? Whether it is made of strap, copper, stainless steel, 
Nichrome, has Silver Mica capacitors, 100 Ohm resistors, 50 Ohm 
resistors or whatever, it is still a device which attacks "the symptom".

Throughout the ages, it has been found that a number, if not all, of 
the methods listed above, are effective in reducing the symptom. None 
of them attack the problem.

If you effectively attack "the problem", you would not need to use a 
parasitic suppressor at all. Are you suggesting that we can all 
design, and build our amplifiers in such a way that we do not need to 
use these devices?

We know that certain tubes, depending on their construction and their 
electrical characteristics, are less prone to the problem than 
others. In those cases, the problem is solved and you can get away 
without a suppressor. Would you be brave enough to put a 3-500Z or 
572B or 3-1000Z amplifier which has no parasitic suppressor/s onto 
the market? No, of course not. You would have to include suppressors 
in case that "symptom" ever reared its ugly head.

Cheers and thanks,
Alek.VK6APK







>It also goes back to basics. Why do only a handful of untrained ham 
>hobbiests  fall for the voodo while engineers from all corners of 
>the planet condemn it??  What commercial amp uses voodo suppressors? 
>What tube manufacturer champions them?
>
>Measures was banned from this reflector for his stand and obvious 
>completely wrong theories.
>
>Im not going to get in a long winded discourse on this, the feelings 
>on here run deep and Ive no desire to start it anew. Anything you 
>might want is in the archives going back to the 90's when I first 
>joined. You will find a long list of respected engineers represented.
>
>Carl
>KM1H
>
>
>>At 06:57 AM 13/03/2010, Carl wrote:
>>>No offense Alek but the masses on here dont believe in voodo science as they
>>>do on the forum you just arrived from. You might want to search the archives
>>>on the subject.
>>
>>Ha ha. No offense taken Carl. You won't offend me in a hurry. 
>>Number 1, I'm married. Number 2, I live by the principle that if 
>>you strike a match, then don't cry to mummy (you say mommy) that 
>>the fire is too hot. I lit the match so I gotta take the flame.
>>
>>You are probably right about voodoo science but all that is quite 
>>irrelevant to me, because I know from my own experience, that they 
>>do actually work. I'm satisfied with that.
>>
>>>Larry, for a real suppressor that works get a Xicon 50 Ohm 5W MOX resistor
>>>and a pair of 100pf 500V silver micas for each suppressor from Mouser.
>>>
>>>Lay a resistor and the original (or a clone) in parallel. Connect a cap
>>>between them at both ends. Wire it dead bug or on perf board.
>>
>>You said a pair of SM caps for each suppressor. Do you put the 2 
>>caps in series to give you 50pF @ 1kV and then put that in parallel 
>>with the coil and resistor?
>>
>>If so, then I am interested enough to try it out on my Clipperton L 
>>which is also being done up. I just got a Ameritron plate choke in 
>>the mail this week so I'll be installing that next weekend, along 
>>with the .01uF at the base. I have a bundle of 50 Ohm, 5W MOF 
>>resistors and 100pF SM caps, so I will do up the suppressors as well.
>>
>>Cheers, Alek
>>VK6APK
>>
>>
>>>Carl
>>>KM1H
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Alek Petkovic" <vk6apk@bigpond.com>
>>>To: "Larry" <w6nws@arrl.net>; "Amps" <amps@contesting.com>
>>>Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 4:57 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Amps] Clipperton-L parasitic suppressors
>>>
>>>
>>> > G'day Larry,
>>> >
>>> > At the risk of offending the masses, don't worry what value they are.
>>> > Just go to http://www.somis.org  and scroll down to
>>> > <http://www.somis.org/Price-Info.html>Price List--Information Sheet
>>> > and order yourself a kit for 4x572B. Much simpler and much better.
>>> >
>>> > If you still wanna know the value of the original, they are as you
>>> > said. In the circuit they are R6 and R7 and the parts list quotes
>>> > them as being 100 Ohm, 2 Watts.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers, Alek
>>> > VK6APK
>>> >
>>> > At 05:33 AM 13/03/2010, Larry wrote:
>>> >>I have cleverly filed my Clipperton-L doc. I am hoping someone can
>>> >>help. The parasitic
>>> >>suppressor resistors have broken. I believe they are 100 ohm 2W
>>> >>composition. Can
>>> >>anyone confirm the value? I am not sure what caused the breakage at
>>> >>this point.
>>> >>
>>> >>73, Larry  W6NWS
>>> >>_______________________________________________
>>> >>Amps mailing list
>>> >>Amps@contesting.com
>>> >>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > http://www.qrz.com/db/vk6apk
>>> > http://www.qrz.com/db/vk6py
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Amps mailing list
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>>> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Amps mailing list
>>>Amps@contesting.com
>>>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>
>>
>>http://www.qrz.com/db/vk6apk
>>http://www.qrz.com/db/vk6py
>>


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