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Re: [Amps] 4 wire 240VAC service? What to do now?

To: n7fcf@hctc.com, wc1m73@gmail.com, jim@audiosystemsgroup.com, amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] 4 wire 240VAC service? What to do now?
From: TexasRF@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 15:22:50 EDT
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>
In a typical sub panel, is the buss bar that is used to common the neutral  
leads insulated from the box chassis? I have installed a couple of sub 
panels  through the years but never paid any attention to that.
 
If the common buss bar is not insulated, then how do you avoid connecting  
the neutrals to the box and associated ground?
 
73,
Gerald K5GW
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 4/4/2011 2:14:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
n7fcf@hctc.com writes:

It  should be treated as a seperate building. The panel would have it's own 
 
main breaker but the neutral would remain ungrouned and the panel  
enclosure 
and equipment ground would be grounded to the seperate ground  rods. The 
neutral is normaly only  grounded at the service main. The  neutral is 
coming 
from the center tap of the 240 volt winding on the pole  pig and you need 
that to develope 120 volts. You can never use a ground as  a current 
carrying 
conductor. You don't need the equipment ground from the  house as you are 
establishing it at the tower. It's sole purpose is to  trip the breaker in 
the event of a ground fault and keep all the metal  enclosures etc at a 
ground potential.
Jim
N7FCF
----- Original  Message ----- 
From: "Dick Green WC1M" <wc1m73@gmail.com>
To:  <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>; <amps@contesting.com>
Sent:  Monday, April 04, 2011 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Amps] 4 wire 240VAC service?  What to do now?


> Yes, and the neutral and ground must be  isolated in any subpanels as 
well.
> However, there's one exception: if  the subpanel is more than a certain
> distance from the main panel (not  sure how far), such that the code 
> requires
> a separate ground  rod at the subpanel, the neutral and separate ground 
rod
> are connected  together in the subpanel. This could be the case for a
> subpanel in a  separate outbuilding.
>
> I have this situation at my station,  though not for an outbuilding. I 
have 
> a
> motorized crankup  tower with a 120VAC motor about 270 feet from the 
house.
> Four #10  wires buried in a 4' deep conduit (separate from the radio 
>  cables,
> of course) carry 240VAC from the main panel in the house to an  
> outdoor-rated
> subpanel mounted next to the tower. The wiring  and subpanel were 
installed
> by a licensed electrician.
>
>  As I recall, the electrician did not bond neutral and ground together at 
 
> the
> subpanel, nor did he connect the subpanel to the tower  ground. I'm sure 
> that
> I had not built the tower ground system  when he installed the subpanel, 
> and
> he didn't bother to  install a separate ground rod for the panel.
> Essentially, the  installed it like a subpanel inside a house would be
>  installed.
>
> After the subpanel went in, I built an extensive  ground rod system for 
the
> tower: 12 rods spaced 16' apart in a radial  pattern from the base, 
> cadwelded
> with 1/0 wire. Several years  ago, I read up on the code, and changed the
> wiring at the subpanel. I  don't recall exactly what I did, but I do know
> that I connected the  subpanel to the tower ground and bonded the local 
120
> VAC neutral to  the tower ground in the subpanel. I believe this is 
> correct.
>  What I don't remember is whether I disconnected the neutral and ground  
> wires
> coming from the house. It seems to me that they should  be disconnected in
> this case. In other words, ground and neutral for  the 120VAC branches 
from
> the subpanel should use the local neutral and  ground, not the ones coming
> from the house. Anyone care to comment on  that? What would be the 
specific
> hazard if the house ground and  neutral wires are connected to the 
subpanel
> ground and neutral, and  thus to each other?
>
> As soon as the snow melts, I'm going to  take a walk to that subpanel and
> refresh my memory on how it's  wired!
>
> 73, Dick WC1M
>
> -----Original  Message-----
> From: Jim Brown  [mailto:jim@audiosystemsgroup.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 12:35  PM
> To: amps@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [Amps] 4 wire 240VAC  service? What to do now?
>
> On 4/4/2011 8:26 AM, Commander John  wrote:
>> I twisted the 2 grounds together and installed them in the  center pin 
>> jack
> as it was that or cut one  off.
>> Is there a better way?
>
> PLEASE go back and  STUDY what I  and several others have written several
> times in  this thread, and in the power and grounding  tutorial that's on
>  my website.  http://audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm
>
>  NEVER, EVER, connect NEUTRAL to GROUND at any point other than the  point
> where it enters the building. The proper connections to your  amplifier
> are the two 240V hot wires and the green wire. The neutral  must NOT be
> connected.
>
> 73, Jim  K9YC
>
>
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