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Re: [Karlnet] RE: 4.46 released

To: "Karlnet Mailing List" <karlnet@WISPNotes.com>
Subject: Re: [Karlnet] RE: 4.46 released
From: "Caleb Carroll" <karlnet@pathcom.ca>
Reply-to: Karlnet Mailing List <karlnet@WISPNotes.com>
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 16:51:46 -0700
List-post: <mailto:karlnet@WISPNotes.com>
I'm just curious because we've had a couple of incidents where a single 
customer's KN-100/105 took down an entire network segment.  We had a look at 
what the KN was transmitting on a spectrum analyzer - it looked like an 
unmodulated CW.

In both cases, there was other 2.4GHz equipment in the house but turning off 
the other 2.4GHz equipment didn't have any effect on the CPE - it continued to 
blast out this RF rubbish.

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2004-12-09 at 4:47 PM Dan Metcalf wrote:

>not that I am aware of, I have swapped out the radios (was a lucent w/
>amp, now is a 300mw demarctechnology card) does it with either card) all
>it takes is some WI-FI interference
>
>
>Caleb Carroll wrote:
>
>>>but the real Issue is that a single CPE should NOT BRING down the ENTIRE
>>>BASE station and every CPE connected to it, regardless of what happens
>>>to any given CPE.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Well, I'm sure everyone agrees with that.  I'm just wondering if your CPE
>is blasing out "rubbish RF".
>>
>>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>
>>
>>
>>>Caleb Carroll wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Have you pointed a spectrum analyzer at the CPE that is retransmitting?
>>>>
>>>>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>>>
>>>>On 2004-12-09 at 12:00 PM Dan Metcalf wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I still see IP Freeze w/ v4.46, over 1000 retransmits within a minute
>or
>>>>>two to a single CPE while the rest of the CPE's get NO activity
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Ryan Free wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>If anyone would like to see screen shots of the "IP Freeze" at work on
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>an
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>STG graph feel free to contact me off list. Very interesting to see
>how
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>a
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>graph can help depict an issue at hand.  I also have a small write up
>as
>>>>>>well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>Ryan Free
>>>>>>Network Consultant
>>>>>>OnlyInternet.Net Broadband & Wireless
>>>>>>www.oibw.net
>>>>>>Broadband Dpt. (800)363-0989
>>>>>>Desk: (800)363-4881 Ext. 2487
>>>>>>Nextel: (260)307-0018
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: karlnet-bounces@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>[mailto:karlnet-bounces@WISPNotes.com]
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>On Behalf Of karlnet-request@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:06 PM
>>>>>>To: karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>Subject: Karlnet Digest, Vol 24, Issue 6
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Send Karlnet mailing list submissions to
>>>>>>  karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>>  http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>>>>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>>>  karlnet-request@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>>>  karlnet-owner@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>>>than "Re: Contents of Karlnet digest..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Today's Topics:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. RE: 4.46 released (Blair Davis)
>>>>>> 2. RE: RE: 4.46 released (Guillermo Bricaire)
>>>>>> 3. RE: 4.46 released (Rick Harnish)
>>>>>> 4. RE 4.46 - WaveLan II BNC (Rick Snider)
>>>>>> 5. Upgrading to 4.46 - Remotely (Rick Snider)
>>>>>> 6. RE: RE: 4.46 released (Dzevad Hadzic)
>>>>>> 7. 4.46 test (Brenden Cooper)
>>>>>> 8. Re: RE: 4.46 released (Caleb Carroll)
>>>>>> 9. How do you ppl check noise floor (Dzevad Hadzic)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Message: 1
>>>>>>Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:21:50 -0500
>>>>>>From: Blair Davis <blair@wmwisp.net>
>>>>>>Subject: [Karlnet] RE: 4.46 released
>>>>>>To: karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>Message-ID: <41B7382E.6030701@wmwisp.net>
>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am using 4.46 on my AP-1000E / Wavepoint II-E units.  No special
>>>>>>problems found so far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>DON'T try to put 4.46 on an AP-1000 / Wavepoint II (units with the
>BNC
>>>>>>connector) unless you want to go replace / reload the unit.  It WILL
>>>>>>cause the unit to lock up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Preparing to load 4.46 on my flashroms and on my OR-500 / OR-2 and
>>>>>>RG-1x00 units later today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Blair Davis
>>>>>>West Michigan Wireless ISP
>>>>>>269-686-8648
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A Division of :
>>>>>>Camp Communication Services, INC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Message: 2
>>>>>>Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 09:48:57 -0800
>>>>>>From: "Guillermo Bricaire" <gbricaire@bricaire.com>
>>>>>>Subject: RE: [Karlnet] RE: 4.46 released
>>>>>>To: <blair@wmwisp.net>,   "'Karlnet Mailing List'"
>>>>>>  <karlnet@WISPNotes.com>
>>>>>>Message-ID: <000601c4dd4e$3ecd0e30$6401a8c0@wiwo>
>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks for that info!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: karlnet-bounces@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>[mailto:karlnet-bounces@WISPNotes.com] On Behalf Of Blair Davis
>>>>>>Sent: Miircoles, 08 de Diciembre de 2004 09:22 a.m.
>>>>>>To: karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>Subject: [Karlnet] RE: 4.46 released
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am using 4.46 on my AP-1000E / Wavepoint II-E units.  No special
>>>>>>problems found so far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>DON'T try to put 4.46 on an AP-1000 / Wavepoint II (units with the
>BNC
>>>>>>connector) unless you want to go replace / reload the unit.  It WILL
>>>>>>cause the unit to lock up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Preparing to load 4.46 on my flashroms and on my OR-500 / OR-2 and
>>>>>>RG-1x00 units later today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Blair Davis
>>>>>>West Michigan Wireless ISP
>>>>>>269-686-8648
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A Division of :
>>>>>>Camp Communication Services, INC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Karlnet mailing list
>>>>>>Karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Message: 3
>>>>>>Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:54:51 -0500
>>>>>>From: "Rick Harnish" <wireless@onlyinternet.net>
>>>>>>Subject: RE: [Karlnet] 4.46 released
>>>>>>To: "'Karlnet Mailing List'" <karlnet@WISPNotes.com>
>>>>>>Message-ID: <200412081754.iB8Hss4x002640@smtpgw.onlyinternet.net>
>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have been using the beta 4.46 release for six months.  I have had
>very
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>few
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>issues with it since we uploaded it.  I went from having about 4 IP
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>freezes
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>a day to maybe 1 per month.  We plan to start transitioning our older
>>>>>>firmware to the new release over the course of the next few weeks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rick Harnish
>>>>>>President
>>>>>>OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc.
>>>>>>260-827-2482 Office
>>>>>>www.oibw.net
>>>>>>rharnish@oibw.net
>>>>>>MSN: r_harnish62@hotmail.com
>>>>>>ICQ: 293578162
>>>>>>Founding Member of WISPA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: Dzevad Hadzic [mailto:zex@zex.biz]
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:35 PM
>>>>>>To: 'TerabeamTechnical Services'; 'Karlnet Mailing List'
>>>>>>Subject: RE: [Karlnet] 4.46 released
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Did anybody tested 4.46 ?
>>>>>>Btw seems that terabeam website is very long time down...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Message: 4
>>>>>>Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:24:20 -0600
>>>>>>From: "Rick Snider" <rick@snider.org>
>>>>>>Subject: [Karlnet] RE 4.46 - WaveLan II BNC
>>>>>>To: <karlnet@WISPNotes.com>
>>>>>>Message-ID: <FIEJKNBFHPMNGAPPNMADMELGDBAA.rick@snider.org>
>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Where Can I download a release for AP1000 TurboCell
>>>>>>ISP Binary that will work -- I have trashed two of these units
>>>>>>by trying to load 4.45 and was told to wait for 4.46 --- now
>>>>>>it looke like I need to locate an older Bin file like a 4.43
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Also If I pull a new License Key from License It -- based on the Mac
>>>>>>Address -- will it work with the older binary?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If not who can provide me with working binary - license key
>combination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rick Snider, PE
>>>>>>Hillcountry Networks
>>>>>>Texas Rural Internet Engineering
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Message: 5
>>>>>>Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:35:43 -0600
>>>>>>From: "Rick Snider" <rick@snider.org>
>>>>>>Subject: [Karlnet] Upgrading to 4.46 - Remotely
>>>>>>To: <karlnet@WISPNotes.com>
>>>>>>Message-ID: <FIEJKNBFHPMNGAPPNMADAELIDBAA.rick@snider.org>
>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Is there a safe way to do remote upgrades to KN105 and RG-1100 boards
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>over
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>the radio link?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I assume loading in a Config File to the Bin before downloading would
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>work.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>But is there
>>>>>>a supported way to remotely upgrade the Bin to these boards?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rick Snider, PE
>>>>>>Hillcountry Networks
>>>>>>Texas Rural Internet Engineering
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Message: 6
>>>>>>Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 21:57:44 +0100
>>>>>>From: "Dzevad Hadzic" <zex@zex.biz>
>>>>>>Subject: RE: [Karlnet] RE: 4.46 released
>>>>>>To: <blair@wmwisp.net>,   "'Karlnet Mailing List'"
>>>>>>  <karlnet@WISPNotes.com>
>>>>>>Message-ID: <20041208205754.4A8F4F2806@paris.akorn.net>
>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Did you upgrade your unit's and is everyhintg ok?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: Blair Davis [mailto:blair@wmwisp.net]
>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 6:22 PM
>>>>>>>To: karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>>Subject: [Karlnet] RE: 4.46 released
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am using 4.46 on my AP-1000E / Wavepoint II-E units.  No
>>>>>>>special problems found so far.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>DON'T try to put 4.46 on an AP-1000 / Wavepoint II (units with the
>BNC
>>>>>>>connector) unless you want to go replace / reload the unit.
>>>>>>>It WILL cause the unit to lock up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Preparing to load 4.46 on my flashroms and on my OR-500 /
>>>>>>>OR-2 and RG-1x00 units later today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Blair Davis
>>>>>>>West Michigan Wireless ISP
>>>>>>>269-686-8648
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A Division of :
>>>>>>>Camp Communication Services, INC
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Karlnet mailing list
>>>>>>>Karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>>http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Message: 7
>>>>>>Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:01:29 +1100
>>>>>>From: "Brenden Cooper" <brenden@megalink.com.au>
>>>>>>Subject: [Karlnet] 4.46 test
>>>>>>To: <karlnet@WISPNotes.com>
>>>>>>Message-ID: <004201c4dd71$795e4280$c85d20cb@s>
>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have put on the 4.46 vision on to a base that had a big problem with
>>>>>>lock ups.
>>>>>>So far so good, it hasn't lock up since installed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Brenden
>>>>>>Megalink Aust
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: karlnet-bounces@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>[mailto:karlnet-bounces@WISPNotes.com] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>karlnet-request@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 4:01 AM
>>>>>>To: karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>Subject: Karlnet Digest, Vol 24, Issue 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Send Karlnet mailing list submissions to
>>>>>>  karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>>  http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>>>>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>>>  karlnet-request@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>>>  karlnet-owner@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than
>>>>>>"Re: Contents of Karlnet digest..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Today's Topics:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. RE: 4.46 released (Dzevad Hadzic)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Message: 1
>>>>>>Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 02:35:26 +0100
>>>>>>From: "Dzevad Hadzic" <zex@zex.biz>
>>>>>>Subject: RE: [Karlnet] 4.46 released
>>>>>>To: "'TerabeamTechnical Services'" <techsupport@terabeam.com>,
>>>>>>  "'Karlnet Mailing List'" <karlnet@WISPNotes.com>
>>>>>>Message-ID: <20041208013540.85E83F285E@paris.akorn.net>
>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Did anybody tested 4.46 ?
>>>>>>Btw seems that terabeam website is very long time down...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Karlnet mailing list
>>>>>>Karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>End of Karlnet Digest, Vol 24, Issue 5
>>>>>>**************************************
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Message: 8
>>>>>>Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 17:36:53 -0700
>>>>>>From: "Caleb Carroll" <karlnet@pathcom.ca>
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Karlnet] RE: 4.46 released
>>>>>>To: blair@wmwisp.net, "Karlnet Mailing List" <karlnet@WISPNotes.com>,
>>>>>>  karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>Message-ID: <200412081736530853.1B1F20EB@mail.pathcom.ca>
>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Read the bloody e-mail from Reg.  It says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>***
>>>>>> Known Issue:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) AP-1000 units with boot version 3.20 should not be upgraded to
>>>>>>versions
>>>>>> higher than 4.44-02.
>>>>>>***
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AP-1000's with BNC connectors all have 3.20 boot prom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On 2004-12-08 at 12:21 PM Blair Davis wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am using 4.46 on my AP-1000E / Wavepoint II-E units.  No special
>>>>>>>problems found so far.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>DON'T try to put 4.46 on an AP-1000 / Wavepoint II (units with the
>BNC
>>>>>>>connector) unless you want to go replace / reload the unit.  It WILL
>>>>>>>cause the unit to lock up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Preparing to load 4.46 on my flashroms and on my OR-500 / OR-2 and
>>>>>>>RG-1x00 units later today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Blair Davis
>>>>>>>West Michigan Wireless ISP
>>>>>>>269-686-8648
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A Division of :
>>>>>>>Camp Communication Services, INC
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Karlnet mailing list
>>>>>>>Karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>>http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Message: 9
>>>>>>Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 02:05:30 +0100
>>>>>>From: "Dzevad Hadzic" <zex@zex.biz>
>>>>>>Subject: [Karlnet] How do you ppl check noise floor
>>>>>>To: "'Karlnet Mailing List'" <karlnet@WISPNotes.com>
>>>>>>Message-ID: <20041209010535.711F2F26F8@paris.akorn.net>
>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I recently had problem with setuping long link ~20 miles. After
>setting
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>up
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>units and mounting antennas on tower I was able to see other unit
>>>>>>In wireless link test but there was too much noise ( I fond this
>latter)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>establish connection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Only way witch comes to my mind was to setup one unit to 802.11 and
>use
>>>>>>netstumbler to check noise ratio and find low-noise channel.
>>>>>>If noise is too high link does not work and I can't see how much noise
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>is
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>around with wireless link test.
>>>>>>This sounds to me like catch 22.
>>>>>>Is there some other way to check for noise ratio without establishing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>link
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>test ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Karlnet mailing list
>>>>>>Karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>End of Karlnet Digest, Vol 24, Issue 6
>>>>>>**************************************
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Karlnet mailing list
>>>>>>Karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>>http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Karlnet mailing list
>>>>>Karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>>http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Karlnet mailing list
>>>>Karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>>http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Karlnet mailing list
>>>Karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>>http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Karlnet mailing list
>>Karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>>http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Karlnet mailing list
>Karlnet@WISPNotes.com
>http://lists.wispnotes.com/mailman/listinfo/karlnet



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