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Re: [TenTec] Omni VI audio problem

To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Omni VI audio problem
From: Bob McGraw K4TAX <rmcgraw@blomand.net>
Reply-to: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec@contesting.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 22:29:19 -0500
List-post: <mailto:tentec@contesting.com>
I would suggest wiring the HC-5 direct and bypass the amp in the G stand base. 

The purpose of the amp was to provide a very Hi Z load to the original crystal 
element, about 3 megohm, and to provide a Lo Z source to solid state radios in 
the order of 10k ohms. 

The HC-5 should drive the mike input of the Omni VI adequately and without 
issues. 

Bob, K4TAX


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 18, 2018, at 10:15 PM, Stan Gammons <s_gammons@charter.net> wrote:
> 
> Yes, 9 o'clock on the mic gain seems to be about right for the EV-638.
> 
> Think I'll put the 707 on shelf next to that Vibroplex bug... :) I may tinker 
> with the converted D-104 some more.  I think the Heil conversion uses the 
> HC5.1 element.  Not sure how that element will work with the amplified 
> D-104's.
> 
> I'll try the L pad and bonding the computer chassis to station ground.
> 
> Thanks Bob.
> 
> 73
> 
> Stan
> KM4HQE
> 
> 
>> On 9/18/2018 9:55 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>> I've found typically the mike gain runs 9 o'clock to 10 o'clock on these 
>> radios.   Yes the 707 has much lower output and will require one to raise 
>> the gain a considerable amount.   My 707 sits on the shelf with my original 
>> D-104.   They "look good" sitting there, which is where I prefer they remain.
>> 
>> I fought the computer interface issues to my Paragon and my Omni VI series.  
>> Both have the same type of input on the rear where the mike audio and the 
>> rear connector audio are summed together through a pair of 47K resistors on 
>> the TX audio board.
>> 
>> The better solution I found was to build a resistive L pad with about 20 dB 
>> loss.   The 1/8 watt resistors were mounted in the shell of the RCA 
>> connector which plugged into the rear connector.    This required I raise 
>> the level out of the computer sound card but in doing so, I improved my 
>> transmit S/N ratio about 20 dB.  This is worth doing regardless of your 
>> final decision. Makes for cleaner digital signals and allows easier 
>> adjustment of the audio out of the computer for transmit level control.     
>> This allowed me to keep the mike gain at the 9 o'clock position.   Just be 
>> sure the mike connected to the front is off so that any room noise being 
>> picked up is not transmitted.
>> 
>> 73
>> 
>> Bob, K4TAX
>> 
>> 
>>> On 9/18/2018 9:43 PM, Stan Gammons wrote:
>>> For now I'm just going to disconnect the sound card output from the PC when 
>>> operating phone.  I did try another core at the sound card output and for 
>>> some strange reason that made matters worse. One core on each end of the 
>>> cable reduces the hash/noise a lot.  Only when I have the mic gain around 1 
>>> o'clock do I notice the increase in output when I have the rig keyed 
>>> without a mic attached. Normally, I run the mic gain around the 9 o'clock 
>>> position.  I don't believe Ten-Tec 707 has as high an output as the 
>>> Electro-Voice EV-638, but 9 o'clock on the mic gain seems to be Ok with 
>>> either mic.  The 707 is pretty, but I like the EV-638 as much or more.
>>> 
>>> I don't have the PC chassis bonded to station ground.  I'll mess with that 
>>> this coming weekend.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for all the replies.
>>> 
>>> 73
>>> 
>>> Stan
>>> KM4HQE
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 9/18/2018 9:25 PM, Greg S via TenTec wrote:
>>>> Run both audio sources in the back. Switch between them with a 
>>>> conveniently mounted DPDT switch. These rigs ain’t worth much any more. I 
>>>> little hole, or a bracket added somewhere isn’t gonna kill what little 
>>>> value they have left. I like mine, but have a few tinkerers mods slated 
>>>> for the upcoming winter months.
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Greg, KC8HXO
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my Linux device
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 18, 2018, at 09:29, Bob McGraw K4TAX <rmcgraw@blomand.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Even with that  approach, any noise coming out of the computer sound card 
>>>>> output stage will be sent to the input of the Omni VI.   This will occur 
>>>>> even when the audio gain of the computer is reduced or muted as the gain 
>>>>> control is before the output stage of the sound card.  Just the fact, any 
>>>>> noise coming out of the computer will be introduced into the MIC audio 
>>>>> due to the design of the circuit.
>>>>> 
>>>>> One can add some 20 dB of attenuation in the form of an L Pad between the 
>>>>> output of the computer and the input to the radio. This will reduce the 
>>>>> amount of noise to perhaps a satisfactory level.  But still, there will 
>>>>> be some noise coming from the computer sound care, reduced 20 dB.  And 
>>>>> one will then need to raise the gain of the data signal in the computer 
>>>>> application to off-set this 20 dB attenuation. While I find this works 
>>>>> and I operated this way for years, the digital artifacts from the 
>>>>> computer may still exist to some lesser extent, although may be found to 
>>>>> be satisfactory.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The best solution is to disconnect the cable to the rear input when not 
>>>>> used.  But when used, you will still likely need the 20 dB attenuation to 
>>>>> clean up the digital noise out of the computer.    A Transformer is an OK 
>>>>> idea as long as it is configured to have voltage loss and not matched 
>>>>> loss.   The idea of the transformer is to eliminate a "ground loop" what 
>>>>> ever that might be.   {The only ground loop I'm familiar with is upon  
>>>>> less than a careful landing of a Piper Tripacer in a cross wind.}
>>>>> 
>>>>> 73
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob, K4TAX
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 9/18/2018 4:50 AM, Barry N1EU wrote:
>>>>>> Stan, to get rid of the residual hash do one of the following:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1. assure you have the computer chassis and Omni 6 chassis properly 
>>>>>> bonded
>>>>>> to common station ground.
>>>>>> 2. put an audio isolation transformer in the line between PC soundcard 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Omni 6 audio in
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 73, Barry N1EU
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Stan Gammons <s_gammons@charter.net> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I removed the split core I had on the audio cable and put a solid core
>>>>>>> with several turns of the the audio cable wrapped around the core at the
>>>>>>> sound card output.  That drastically reduced the hash picked up from the
>>>>>>> PC.  So, it should  have a MUCH cleaner digital signal now.  Now when I
>>>>>>> remove the mic and short pin 3 to ground and turn the mic gain fully
>>>>>>> clockwise, the rig is putting out maybe 1 watt. Much better than the 100
>>>>>>> watts it was putting out when I tried the same thing before!  Yeah, it 
>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>> bummer that both are hot all the time.   I'll have to remember to
>>>>>>> disconnect the cable from the PC when operating phone. Would have been
>>>>>>> nice if one were able to select the audio source.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks for your help.  Hopefully I'll sound better when I check into the
>>>>>>> net now :)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Stan
>>>>>>> KM4HQE
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 9/17/2018 9:25 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Stan
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately that input on the rear is "hot" all of the time and the
>>>>>>>> signal (noise) is mixed with mike audio. It is isolated by a 10k ohm
>>>>>>>> resistor.  The MIC gain and SP level controls both inputs.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You must physically connect one or the other, but never both. There is 
>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>> provision in the radio to select between the two inputs.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I wouldn't bother with chokes as any noise from the computer or 
>>>>>>>> interface
>>>>>>>> will appear in mike audio.   Just the way it works. Bummer.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Bob, K4TAX
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2018, at 9:16 PM, Stan Gammons <s_gammons@charter.net> 
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> One thing I forgot to check before and I pretty sure I found out what
>>>>>>>>> the problem is.  I have the PC soundcard out connected to the audio 
>>>>>>>>> in on
>>>>>>>>> the back of the radio so I can use it for digital modes.  Seems as 
>>>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>>>> it's picking up hash from the PC and it's getting mixed with the 
>>>>>>>>> audio from
>>>>>>>>> the mic. When I disconnect the cable from the PC, things are normal.  
>>>>>>>>> Dang
>>>>>>>>> it!  Guess I need to put another or more ferrite cores on the audio 
>>>>>>>>> cable.
>>>>>>>>> I hear the computer hash when I test PTT with WSJT-X too.  So it's
>>>>>>>>> transmitting a cruddy digital signal too.  That's unacceptable.  I 
>>>>>>>>> have to
>>>>>>>>> fix that.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Stan
>>>>>>>>> KM4HQE
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/2018 8:51 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Stan:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> First I suggest turning the speech processor OFF and forever leave it
>>>>>>>>>> OFF.    If you want to use it, just remember, more is worse.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Even though the mikes worked on the TR7, I view this is no indication
>>>>>>>>>> the wiring is correct for the Omni VI.  I suggest checking the 
>>>>>>>>>> manual for
>>>>>>>>>> the correct mike wiring and physically confirm the mike of choice is 
>>>>>>>>>> wired
>>>>>>>>>> correctly.    I find mike wiring standards to be as varied as dust
>>>>>>>>>> particles in a Texas sandstorm.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Pin #1 is mike high or mike audio
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Pin #2 is ground and shield.  Be sure the shield of the mike cable 
>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>> folds back into the Amphenol cable connector to make contact with 
>>>>>>>>>> the shell.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Pin #3 is PTT
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Pin #4 is  +4 DCV for use with an Electrect mike.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Check the plug in filters on the bottom to see they are seated
>>>>>>>>>> correctly and correct location.  Again, contact cleaning of their 
>>>>>>>>>> pins
>>>>>>>>>> might be in order.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> One other test, disconnect the mike, turn the MIC gain fully
>>>>>>>>>> counterclockwise {off}, transmit and listen to the radio.  With the 
>>>>>>>>>> 2nd
>>>>>>>>>> receiver, tune across the frequency and listen for carrier.  In 
>>>>>>>>>> general all
>>>>>>>>>> should be quiet.  If you hear significant carrier, there is a 
>>>>>>>>>> procedure to
>>>>>>>>>> null the carrier.  Probably need an oscilloscope and dummy load to 
>>>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Next would be to check the frequency of the BFO crystals.  Again 
>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>> is an alignment procedure.  This must be adjusted in the exact steps
>>>>>>>>>> outlined in the manual as there is interaction between the 
>>>>>>>>>> adjustments.
>>>>>>>>>> Repeat the procedure a couple of times.   A frequency counter is 
>>>>>>>>>> required
>>>>>>>>>> for this adjustment.  Don't skip one step just because you don't 
>>>>>>>>>> intend to
>>>>>>>>>> use that mode.  There is interaction between the adjustments.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> And of course my last suggestion, which normally is my first
>>>>>>>>>> suggestion..........take time to pull each cable, using a Q-Tip 
>>>>>>>>>> moistened
>>>>>>>>>> with contact cleaner, scrub the male pins of each and every 
>>>>>>>>>> connector.
>>>>>>>>>> Then plug and unplug the connector  a couple of times so as to wipe 
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> female contacts. Do this one at a time and double check to see each
>>>>>>>>>> connector is inserted fully and correctly.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> NEVER NEVER NEVER spray anything into the radio. {One fellow I know
>>>>>>>>>> [not me] removed the plugin IC's, sprayed into their sockets, and 
>>>>>>>>>> now he
>>>>>>>>>> has a radio full of issues and weirdness. Remember contact cleaner is
>>>>>>>>>> used to promote the flow of current.   Imagine what takes place in a 
>>>>>>>>>> logic
>>>>>>>>>> IC socket that is wet with cleaner. ugh!!!! }
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> With a radio of that age, it not at all unusual for the electrolytic
>>>>>>>>>> caps in the audio stage to deteriorate.  One issue which can exist 
>>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>>> output of a stage can drift negative a few millivolts.  In effect it 
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> reverse polarize the coupling capacitor.  The result is after time 
>>>>>>>>>> the 1
>>>>>>>>>> MFD cap will migrate to about 0.01 MFD.  Not a good path for audio 
>>>>>>>>>> in these
>>>>>>>>>> circuits. Makes the radio sound funny too.     I always replace the 
>>>>>>>>>> audio
>>>>>>>>>> coupling capacitors with nonpolar electrolytics of the same voltage 
>>>>>>>>>> and C
>>>>>>>>>> value.   There is no need to change parameters. Problem solved.  I 
>>>>>>>>>> had a
>>>>>>>>>> lengthy discussion with Tentec management and engineering on the 
>>>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>>>> some years ago.   It almost caused me to not buy a new Omni VI Plus.
>>>>>>>>>> Finally, I did and loved it.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Bob, K4TAX
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/2018 8:00 PM, Stan Gammons wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I was tinkering with an old D-104 T-UG8 that I had put a Heil
>>>>>>>>>>> conversion kit in since the original element bit the dust. I ask 
>>>>>>>>>>> for an
>>>>>>>>>>> audio report from some of the locals that know what I sound like 
>>>>>>>>>>> and they
>>>>>>>>>>> said I sounded terrible.  So, I switched to the Ten-Tec 707 mic, 
>>>>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>>> report. So, I tried my trusty old EV-638. Same story.  I didn't try 
>>>>>>>>>>> it with
>>>>>>>>>>> the converted D-104 to see what it sounds like. They initially told 
>>>>>>>>>>> me it
>>>>>>>>>>> sounded like the mic was picking up something like a fan maybe, so 
>>>>>>>>>>> turning
>>>>>>>>>>> the gain down helped a little but not a lot. SO, today I decided to 
>>>>>>>>>>> put the
>>>>>>>>>>> Omni VI on a dummy load and listen to it with my Drake TR7.  Yuck! 
>>>>>>>>>>> The Omni
>>>>>>>>>>> VI sounds terrible!  It's almost like there is a little bit of a 
>>>>>>>>>>> carrier
>>>>>>>>>>> and it has what sounds like digital hash on it. It gets worse the 
>>>>>>>>>>> higher
>>>>>>>>>>> the mic gain is cranked. When I modulate, the audio sounds all 
>>>>>>>>>>> distorted.
>>>>>>>>>>> Even without modulation, if I turn the processor on and crank it 
>>>>>>>>>>> up, the
>>>>>>>>>>> digital hash in the audio seems to get even wo
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>    rse. SO, just to make sure it wasn't something weird going on, I 
>>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>> the same thing with the TR7.  I put it on a dummy load and listened to 
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> with the Omni VI. I tried it with the same mics and the audio is 
>>>>>>>> clean. No
>>>>>>>> hash or anything.  Anyone heard of a problem like this with an Omni VI?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Stan
>>>>>>>>>>> KM4HQE
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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