I believe Dick has nailed it..!..With that market at those prices, who
needs the hams. There are lots of hams here in CA, but I bet less than 2
or 3 % have any kind of tower.
Chuck
W6RD
On 1/3/2017 5:43 PM, Richard Solomon wrote:
You chaps are looking under the
wrong rock here.
With the potential of a large increase
in orders for use on the "Wall", this
is just the precursor to justify the
prices that will be charged to the
government.
73, Dick, W1KSZ
On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Kevin <kstover@ac0h.net> wrote:
Correct.
Double it if you want. I can't imagine it taking more than 10 minutes to
load and clamp the fixture. Add another 5 for getting it out of the
fixture. That's 2+ per hour. Building the complete tower would take a great
deal more time.
I used to weld these and build the newer model welding fixtures.
http://www.handyindustries.com/truck-tailgates
3-4 per hour, 30+ for a ten hour day. That's loading the jig, welding,
unloading. 5th wheel gates had approx 56 individual welds depending on
model. Straights not as many. We used MIG welders. 0.035 diameter wire and
90/10 Argon/CO2 gas. The louvers were 20ga and were welded top and bottom
to 16ga side channels and the V braces and support rods. It was like
welding toilet paper. I'd love to weld a tower section. Big fat
steel...crank up the welder and fly. The LCD helmet did help. No helmet
flipping.
On 1/2/2017 6:55 PM, Wayne Kline wrote:
I think the 10 minutes is the welding time, surly not the set up "
installing the pieces into the welding Jig " and from my observation
only the bottom and top area plates ( which would have the pillow block
brackets pre welded on ) are the only area which would require multiple
passes .
With big Arco or Miller Flux core machines .... 10 min would be on the
low end of time But 30 to 35 min from raw pieces to finished craned off
unit more like it.
Wayne W3EA
________________________________
From: TowerTalk <towertalk-bounces@contesting.com> on behalf of EZ Rhino
<EZRhino@fastmovers.biz>
Sent: Monday, January 2, 2017 6:44 PM
To: Towertalk Reflector
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] US Tower price increase
Ten minutes huh? I want to see that. Send me a video.
Chris
KF7P
On Jan 2, 2017, at 16:26 , Kevin wrote:
Chris,
I used to do it for a living. I was certified to weld just about anything
anywhere, except underwater.
They are NOT a start up. They've had all the tooling and "machinery" for
many years now. ALL of their crank ups are a variation of 5 or 6 20' tower
sections whose jigs were built years ago. I could probably weld one in 10
minutes, even with my poor eyesight and prosthetic leg.
Press brakes, CNC Plasma tables, CNC lathes, welders, etc...don't need
replacing very often, if ever, given proper maintenance. We had a WWII
turret lathe that still put out very good parts, maybe not CNC quality but
good enough.
They're building towers not high performance engines or wrist watches.
Kinda funny that Tashjian hasn't raised their prices by a factor of
three. They're 20 miles apart and probably have quite a few of the same
suppliers.
They simply don't want to be in the amateur market any longer.
On 1/2/2017 4:56 PM, EZ Rhino wrote:
Good points Jim.
I may also add that a lot of us (including myself, at times) are
spoiled. We clickety click click on line, and two days later a product is
in our mailbox. We no longer realize how things are manufactured or the
time, energy and cost associated with producing a product.
Metal fabrication isn't an inexpensive or easy business to be in. The
machinery needed to fabricate a tower is expensive, er, I mean, EXPENSIVE!
and HUGE! CNC plasma tables, press brakes, welding equipment, CNC benders,
jigs, fixturing tables, tooling, tooling, and more tooling, and qualified
experienced operators of this machinery, and don't forget a huge building
that can store all this stuff. Metal fab is a slow process, lots of labor,
and lots of trial and error to figure out how to make something that
functions correctly. Then you need to figure out the most economical way
to mass produce the product with the least labor as possible. It's not
easy.
I am not excusing the price increases at UST, as they do sound out of
line. But I do think getting a new 50-foot crank up for $3k is a bargain!
Also watch the used market, where you can get a real deal on some used
stuff. I watched the classifieds like a hawk for almost a year, finally
found a TriEx LM470 that was still horizontal, still partially crated,
never installed, and got it for a song.
Chris
KF7P
On Jan 2, 2017, at 15:43 , jimlux wrote:
On 1/2/17 11:38 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
Great response, Jim. BUT -- the increase noted by the original poster
was that the increase was overnight!
Several possible reasons for this. One is that business operations for
the ham market are often supported by higher volume and higher margin
operations for other markets. When those other markets fall apart, they
no longer support the ham market, or contribute to economies of scale
that allow lower prices.
Another is corporate mergers, which can change business priorities,
change where products are manufactured.
But assuming corporate greed as the reason for all such price increases
is unreasonable. It certainly can be, but there are many other reasons.
yes, I agree.. usually it's a "it's not economic to sell at that price
any more, compared to other products". I was more commenting on the "back
in 85" comment.
I know someone who is buying 50 tower trailers with 100+ ft towers on
them. That's a much better sale proposition than onsie, twosie sales to
individuals. Whether through distribution or not, the support costs tend
to be "per customer" not "per tower".
As for the overnight x3... That's a "we don't really want to be in this
business" or "our cost structure radically changed" kind of increase.
I've also seen that when you have a business founder of a family
operated business retires/sells out: the founder didn't have any debt
service costs, was willing to live out whatever margin there was. The new
owner had to get a loan to buy the business and actually has to pay
employees a wage and benefits - all of a sudden instead of "my wife does
the assembly and we're on the same insurance" it's "I've got to pay a
reasonable wage and provide vacation, insurance, etc.", I've got to pay
rent and storage costs, I've got to pay for the "cost of money".
A similar phenomenon occurs when a partner retires/dies/leaves and the
remaining partners have to buy them out.
Or, it's just - we don't want to leave existing customers totally in the
lurch, but we can't subsidize them either - we'll be responsible and at
least make parts available, but at cost that is basically "fabricate from
scratch individually"
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