The original postulation from Brian, K6STI, was that connecting the shield of
the coax to ground at a point where any common mode current might exist would
shunt it to ground. I've claimed that's a fallacy, because ground is NOT an RF
sink and RF is not a static charge that can be just bled off somewhere. RF is
AC, and any connection to ground is bidirectional. At most, connecting the
shield to ground just adds another element (most likely capacitive) to the
overall network. The current doesn't just disappear into the earth.
Dave AB7E
On Sun, 28 Sep 2025 08:33:30 -0500, Kelly Taylor via
TowerTalk<towertalk@contesting.com> wrote:
Question: If the Earth WAS an RF sink, why would you want it to be?
Any RF “sunk” into the ground is RF that’s not available to radiate. Better to
design a system to put as much RF as possible into the air, no?
Silly me… ;-)
73, kelly, ve4xt
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 28, 2025, at 06:30, Jim Lux wrote:
The field from the antenna (and from the feedline, if there's any current in
the shield, or it's unbalanced) certainly does interact with the soil under the
antenna (and houses, trees, etc.).
The question is "how much" (which NEC can answer, as long as you're willing to accept the
"uniform soil property" model).
And that depends mostly on "how close is it" - after all, instruments called
sounders fly on spacecraft and measure the EM properties of the soil below at a distance
of hundreds or thousands of km: whether on Earth, Mars (MARSIS, SHARAD), or Europa
(REASON). They work at 9 MHz, and REASON also has a VHF mode.
We can even get a sort of worst case - There's a paper by Dave Rutledge and
Michael Muha that that has some simple equations for a dipole laying on the
ground. For very dry soil with epsilon 3 + 0.005j, the signal propagating into
the soil is about 5-6 dB greater than the signal propagating into space. It
roughly goes as n^3 (where n is the index of refraction - sqrt(epsilon), so
epsilon^1.5). George Hagn at SRI spent quite a while trying to measure soil
properties with dipoles at various heights above the ground.
It's behind the IEEE Paywall, but it might be available elsewhere:
D. Rutledge and M. Muha, "Imaging antenna arrays," in IEEE Transactions on
Antennas and Propagation, vol. 30, no. 4, pp. 535-540, July 1982, doi:
10.1109/TAP.1982.1142856.
When it comes to "drive a rod" vs "radials" (or some form of counterpoise), one way to look at it
is that the radials make a "higher conductivity" soil, and there's all kinds of interesting trades about
wires in the ground vs wires on ground vs wires above ground, which lots of people have looked at: Rudy N6LF has done a
lot of experiment at frequencies of interest to hams; J.R. Wait has published dozens of papers on the electromagnetics
of wires close to, or immersed in, a dielectric. As the phrase has it, this is a "well studied problem".
Of some considerable interest is that the soil is not homogeneous and the RF propagates
quite a ways below the surface (hence the effectiveness of sounders at doing subsurface
imaging). So it's very much a "build it and try it" (which is where the 120
radial thing comes from: that's enough that empirically, it doesn't matter what kind of
soil is under that dense radial field)
On Sat, 27 Sep 2025 21:24:42 -0700, David Gilbert wrote:
I already did with the example of a floating portable setup. Current
requires an E-field to push it. You could connect a grounded wire to a
point on the coax shield and it wouldn't shunt any common mode current
to ground because there is no E-field (voltage) for it.
An earth ground is a grounding point for lightning strikes because the
current that flows in lightning is the result of charge buildup (an
E-field) between clouds and ground.
Earth ground affects transmitted RF because the radiated RF impinges on
the earth and is absorbed and reflected, the ratio between the two being
affected by the parameters of the earth (conductivity and permittivity).
There is no such E-field between the coax and the earth due to the
common mode current on the coax shield. Even if you view the earth as
some sort of super large capacitor, it would require an E-field to push
current into it.
The earth is NOT an RF sink.
Dave AB7E
On 9/27/2025 12:55 PM, Brian Beezley wrote:
"That's a fallacy. It simply isn't."
Dave, it would be helpful if you'd supply your reasoning.
In many ways I regard ground as just another conductor. However,
unlike a wire, it is normally without resonance effects. That's the
"current sink" aspect. Current will flow from a wire into ground if
you make a connection. If you're using a ground rod, the impedance at
the connection depends on the rod length, rod diameter, and the
characteristics of the soil. If the soil is uniform, reflections don't
occur, unlike for a wire of finite length. The current dissipates as
it spreads within the ground, which acts like an infinitely long wire
with a traveling wave. However, when ground strata are distinct and
well defined, resonance can occur. An example shown for the stratified
ground calculator described in the writeup below exhibits strong
resonance. A water table 200 feet below a desert surface magnifies
surface ground conductivity by a factor of 10, which is pretty
amazing. I think such situations are rare because I suspect most
variation in ground characteristics occurs gradually rather than as
distinct strata, which is necessary for resonance.
https://k6sti.neocities.org/sg
Brian
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
|