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[Towertalk] RE: Double protection - climbing

To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Subject: [Towertalk] RE: Double protection - climbing
From: Eje Gustafsson <macahan@fament.com> (Eje Gustafsson)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:27:42 -0600
DG> This sounds right to me. Pete, I don't think the danger of falling with the
DG> positioning lanyard attached to one hip is exaggerated. It's not the same as
DG> falling four feet to a hard floor. In that case the impact is spread over a
DG> much large percentage of your body (even then, you can break bones in an
DG> unrestricted fall of four feet to a hard floor.) With the lanyard tied to
DG> your hip, virtually all of the force is applied to one side of your pelvis.
DG> Without a fall-arrest lanyard, the force could easily fracture your pelvis.
DG> With the entire weight of your upper body going downward against this force,
DG> there's probably a danger of spinal damage and/or hip dislocation as well.
DG> You might swing around wildly, too, potentially hitting your head on the
DG> tower and/or hanging upside down while severely injured.

Fall protection shouldn't be attach to the hip more then for
positioning. The hip D rings are for positioning ONLY. not for
climbing.

DG> A fall-arrest lanyard attached to the back D-ring of a harness spreads the
DG> force out over a much larger area, and the fall-arrest lanyard substantially
DG> reduces the force of the fall. However, a note in the tower info file on
DG> N1LO's site points out that if you fall with a fall-arrest lanyard attached
DG> to the D-ring on the back of your harness, the chances are good that your
DG> head will pitch forward and hit the tower. Should we be wearing rock
DG> climbing helmets for tower work?

Yes you should wear a hardhat or rock climbing helmet while climbing.
For numerous reasons one you stated above. However you will not pitch
that much forward and the back d-ring will make sure that you stay
upright so even if you get knocked out your are not hanging upside
down. This is the biggest danger taking a fall this is just exactly
why you shouldn't have just a belt but a full harness.
With a belt you might/will end upside down and/or hanging double
folded with presure on you inner organs.
There are documented cases where the climber gotten hanging "folded"
and suffocated due to the pressure applied by the belt as well other
cases where the climber slipped out of the belt.
So number one is to prevent you from getting hung in a position you
can't get yourself out of together with the care to try to avoid have
you knocked out.
If you "have" to get knocked out then it's easier for the rescuers to
get you down if your just hanging in your back d-ring. Then they only
need to attach a winch mechanism above you attach wire to your back
d-ring take the load of your fall arrestor and detach it and lower you
down.

DG> N1LO's site addresses this subject, but I'm not sure the info is correct. It
DG> says the preferred climbing method is to use "cowtails" (a Y-lanyard)
DG> attached to the front D-ring. By alternating the two hooks on the cowtail,
DG> you're always tied in. The text says another advantage of this is that you
DG> can use the cowtails for positioning while you rest on the way up, and even
DG> for position at your destination (though they recommend a hip lanyard in
DG> addition.) Seems to me that there are several problems with this approach to
DG> climbing. First, the front D-ring isn't designed for fall-arrest lanyards --
DG> it's for use with a lifeline or similar system, where the potential fall
DG> distance is inches, not feet. Second, the text talks about making your own
DG> cowtails from climbing static line, and they really should be fall-arrest
DG> lanyards. Third, is it recommended  to use the front D-ring for positioning?

front D-ring I'm taught is only for times when you have a wire you can
attach to and the fall will only be a few inches.
The fall protection should be attach to the back D-ring and use a
cowtail for 100% attachment. OSHA I'm to understand do not accept the
home made cow tails from climbing line.  I wouldn't use the front
d-ring for positioning it's simply not very comfortable and is in your
way. Positioning means you can REST on it so you can have BOTH your
arms free. Best positioning is a web lanyard where you have like the
cow-tail but upside down. The "top" of the Y is attach to your hip
d-rings and the bottom of the Y is attach with a big gripple hook to
the tower structure.
This way you can easily make side movements. And you can literally
sit/hang on it and the weight is carried on your d-ring and the
harness part going under your butt. If your lucky you have a harness
with a built in seat and boy now you will be sitting comfy and can sit
there and work for many hours. For longer times it is recommended and
just plain sane to attach your back d-rings fall arrestor above you so
that if you get tired or slip and for some reason would topple
backwards you will not end up upside down.

DG> After reviewing all the suggestions, I've decided that my best bet is to get
DG> a second fall-arrest lanyard and attach it to the back D-ring, along with
DG> the existing fall-arrest lanyard. Then I can use the two-hook method for
DG> climbing and always be tied off. Now, to put a fine point on it, three more
DG> questions:

Good thinking. When all comes down to it it's just a matter of sane
thinking and to cover all the angles.

DG> 1) Does it make sense to also climb with the positioning lanyard around the
DG> tower? Obviously, it would be slower to climb with the positioning lanyard
DG> because it has to be dragged along in spots and has to be unhooked/rehooked
DG> at each guy station. But the advantage is that I can lean back and rest any
DG> time. However, would climbing with the positioning lanyard in place actually
DG> present more risk of injury? Could the positioning lanyard cause injury if
DG> it catches before the fall-arrest lanyards? If so, then the right procedure
DG> would be to climb by alternating the two fall-arrest lanyards, then put the
DG> positioning lanyard around the tower when I want to rest.

Now don't make a whole lot of sense. It will cause more trouble and
risks then it's worth not to mention you will more then likely wear it
out far sooner rubbing against bolts and cable ties and other junk.
If you want to rest simply hang in your back d-ring fall protection.
Generally when I do climbs down after a cable hoist and I stop every
3' to attach the cable and during the time I'm working I'm just
hanging from the fall protection from the back d-ring.


DG> 2) Can a pair of fall-arrest lanyards attached to the back D-ring be used
DG> for temporary positioning while resting (i.e., by slinging them under the
DG> arms? If so, then the hip lanyard wouldn't be needed at all while climbing.

Don't run them under your arms. Just simply hang there for a while.
If you want to rest for a longer period bring out the hip lanyard and
attach it because when your hanging from the d-ring on your back for a
longer time you do get some pressure due to your leg straps on the
harness. So to do it for to long can become less comfortable.
And alternative is to have a web lanyard with a big hook in the middle
and smaller hooks at the end that you attach to your hip rings that
you just need to attach the center piece to the tower. that way you
can very easily and quickly just attach yourself for a little rest.
Leave the fall protection to the back d-ring attach and you could
really take a nap.

DG> 3) Fall arrest lanyards come with regular gorilla hooks and rebar hooks. Is
DG> either preferable? It looks like the rebar hook would be easier to hook and
DG> rehook when climbing.

Not sure. some sites uses the term rebar hook and others uses gorilla
hook for same thing. I think I saw it on championradio "Rebar Hook Also
know as a gorilla hook, this is handy for attachment to larger tower
members" So beats me.

The climbing fall protection I use personally have hooks like on the
link below
http://www.gearshop.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&DID=21&Product_ID=1729&CATID=7

For positioning I would suggest something like
http://www.contractorstools.com/dbisala/sala5900051.html
http://www.contractorstools.com/dbisala/sala5900101.html

Also just because I always wanted to make a comment on this one I just
post it for grins.
http://www.contractorstools.com/dbisala/sala1001210.html
kinky!! When your wife get feed up with you and tie you off in the
tower ;P

- Eje

DG> Thanks for all the good info!

DG> 73, Dick WC1M



>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: towertalk-admin@contesting.com
>> [mailto:towertalk-admin@contesting.com]On Behalf Of sparks@apk.net
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 12:39 PM
>> To: towertalk@contesting.com
>> Subject: [Towertalk] RE: Double protection - climbing
>>
>>
>> If you fall several feet while hooked to a positioning lanyard,
>> you will almost
>> certainly be seriously injured or killed.  If that lanyard is
>> hooked to only
>> one hip, as in the scenario described by below by Pete, the
>> latter possibility
>> is greatly increased. Positioning lanyards are for fall
>> PREVENTION not fall
>> arrest.  The arresting forces on a lanyard without a
>> shock-absorbing element
>> are huge -- thousands of pounds for a 200lb person in 6 foot fall
>> -- and if you
>> are not killed immediately, you will likely suffocate waiting for
>> rescue as you
>> dangle from one side of your waist with your diaphragm
>> compressed. It will also
>> be much more difficult for rescuers to get you positioned for
>> descent from that
>> position.
>>
>> In the absence of a fixed fall-arrest system (like a lifeline or
>> lad-safe),
>> Pete's technique is exactly correct for 100% tie-off, EXCEPT that
>> both lanyards
>> used while double-hooking up the tower should be shock-absorbing,
>> AND they
>> should be hooked to the middle of the back.  "Y-lanyards" are
>> available just
>> for this purpose -- they have two tails off the center hook.  You
>> can also use
>> two individual shock-absorbing lanyards both hooked to the back D-ring.
>>
>> 73 - Jeff, WB2RUZ
>>
>> > Message: 7
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
>> > Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:05:04 -0500
>> > To: dick.green@valley.net, "Chuck Lewis" <clewis@knology.net>,
>> >    "Mark Beckwith" <mark@concertart.com>, towertalk@contesting.com
>> > From: Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com>
>> > Subject: RE: [Towertalk] Double protection - climbing
>> >
>> > I find it easy to envision problems climbing with the positioning
>> > lanyard
>> > around the tower, because it's too easy to imagine sliding down to the
>> > next
>> > guy station, which could be quite a distance below.  At least you don't
>> > fall away from the tower, so presumably you can grab something.
>> >
>> > When I climb, I use a fall-arrest lanyard on the back D-ring and my
>> > positioning lanyard hooked to one of the hip D-rings.  Going up I hook
>> > one
>> > on a rung as far above me as I can reach, while looking at it to be
>> > sure.  Then I unhook the other one (which by this time is between my
>> > feet)
>> > and just let it hang while I continue clmbing till the first lanyard is
>> > between my feet, and repeat the cycle.
>> >
>> > I figure that if I were to fall while climbing, I'm gonna get bruised
>> > whether the current fall-arrest protection is in the middle of my back
>> > or
>> > on one hip, but it sure beats getting dead.
>>

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