Sterling,
I'm 73 years old but I've long argued that ham radio contesting would
benefit from adapting some of the concepts of online gaming ... but only
if the rules were adjusted to allow it. The rules of most ham contests
currently do not allow some of the things that you describe, nor the
kind of things W2RE did. It's not a matter of old fart resistance to
change ... it's a matter of abiding by the rules until they get changed.
I've always felt that amateur radio contests would be more interesting
if they were less one sided. In gaming terms, ham contests are more PvE
than PvP. It would be fun if there was a practical way to offset what
"your opponents" (i.e., other hams) were doing in real time, instead of
basically just competing against the clock and comparing scores at the
end. Something that would affect their scores, not just increase yours
... i.e., combat. I've thought about it a lot, but haven't been able to
come up with anything viable. Maybe you can, but I don't think tying it
in to social media would have very broad appeal simply because it
dilutes focus ... combining two appealing activities does not
necessarily result in an appealing activity.
In any case, we're talking different contest rules, not abusing current
ones.
73,
Dave AB7E
p.s. I've regularly played PvP in games like WoW, Rift, GW2, Smite, etc
for many years now.
On 3/13/2020 8:47 AM, Sterling Mann wrote:
This discourse is giving me a lot of insight as to the future of amateur
radio contesting. I'm a part of a few contest committees and organizing
groups, so in part, I'm building programs for the next generation of ham
radio contesters. I wholly assumed my points of view would not be met with
agreements on this list, but being a part of the youth ham radio culture I
tend to talk about this stuff in an echo chamber that has entirely the
opposite points of view as just about everybody who has responded to me.
It's good to hear from the other side, from the majority of contesters.
It's almost a little disillusioning since the outcry is so fierce here.
The problem with streamers submitting only checklogs and new categories is
that nobody is going to want to force themselves into a non-competitive
category so they can livestream their operation. They're disincentivized to
livestream, and therefore the whole plan of opening up ham radio contesting
to the modern era of hundreds of millions of eSports fans is moot.
I forgot to mention: gaming has a thing called stream sniping, where
opponents try to get an upper hand by watching the streams of a competitor.
It's just like peeking at player 2's screen on Nintendo64 007 Goldeneye
multiplayer. Streamers tend to put long delays or conceal revealing
information to combat this. At eSport tournaments, stream sniping
vehemently banned, and almost made impossible. Some teams have been caught
sneaking information about their opponents strategy or whereabouts to
competitors remotely, via earpieces, chat programs, etc. New rules and
monitoring were put into place.
There's also a thing called swatting, where disgruntled viewers report the
streamer to 911 as a terrorist or mass shooter, ending up with a SWAT team
at the streamers front door. This has actually resulted in a few deaths.
Thankfully 911 agencies and SWAT teams are getting smarter about raiding
houses with no prior convictions or criminal history.
The point is two fold: contesting has a parallel with gaming, so a huge
opportunity exists by integrating with that industry, and that cheating is
always a thing, even in eSports, but it can be limited and curtailed while
still keeping the game fair to everybody, streaming or not.
-Sterling N0SSC
On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5:39 AM Edward Sawyer <EdwardS@sbelectronics.com>
wrote:
Sterling. If you read through your own email, you have validated
basically all of Frank's violation list and then said well its all still
okay. Its not okay.
And Ray does have responsibility for what is happening on his chat bar of
his live stream. He can shit it off because it can't be controlled within
the rules. But that would defeat the point of the social media interaction
wouldn't it. And that the point. Contesting is not social media gaming.
If some people want to promote in as "demo stations" like Ray is doing,
wonderful. But its either a checklog or its a new category.
Ed N1UR
________________________________________
From: CQ-Contest [cq-contest-bounces+edwards=
sbelectronics.com@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Sterling Mann [
kawfey@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 10:38 PM
To: donovanf@starpower.net
Cc: CQ-Contest@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Merging Social Media and Contesting
Frank, we have differing opinions regarding the judgement of the W2RE's
actions and the intent of the rules.
His CQs, exchanges, and solicitations were not relayed over the
internet. *"Contacts
made through repeaters, digipeaters, or gateways are not permitted. This
applies to all forms of active relays or repeaters"* is saying the contact
may only take place without relays. No contact was made using the stream.
To do this, an S&P who could not hear W2RE but W2RE could hear the S&Per
would have to entirely use the audio of the stream to complete the contact.
However, livestreams are always on a fairly significant delay (typically
30s), so one could not make a real-time QSO with him solely by listening to
him on the stream. https://youtu.be/aydTZN4nLfU?t=20005 is one case where
someone said "love the youtube channel" but I guarantee the S&Per made the
QSO entirely via amateur radio due to this delay.
Nor was he soliciting contacts via the stream. Solicitation implies that he
was asking people to work him on a non-amateur means of communication, but
I don't think that's the case here. To solicit a QSO, he would need to give
a potential contact his frequency. Arguably he could have also said "find
me on 20m" or "find my spots" and that may have been a violation. He says
that he's at the bottom of the band here:
https://youtu.be/aydTZN4nLfU?t=97
and to look on the dx cluster here: https://youtu.be/aydTZN4nLfU?t=623. I
do think saying that is not compliant to the rules, but I don't think
posting a stream of his operation is automatically solicitation.
The video does not show his frequency, which would have been a clear
violation, but others independently posted his run freq to the chat after
finding it on the cluster. Ideally, that should have been deleted, but I
don't think W2RE is responsible for what other people are saying.
Personally, I'm in agreement with others that say an unlimited category
would be good here. Ideally the self-spotting rule would not apply to
unlimited, keeping us from having to think too hard about what
self-spotting is.
Additionally, Ray seems to be aware of the chat in the beginning but later
on, as they discuss what frequency he's on, he seems to ignore it. It may
have been put out of his sight, in which case he's not responsible for
viewers conspiring together to work him. At least I don't think he is. But
this is where the problem has it's greatest merit - does the stream give
him an advantage over other operators? Averaged out over time, I don't
really think it does.
The only rule I could see him potentially violating is giving stations that
work him a non-amateur means of verifying the information in their QSO. An
S&Per might botch the QSO, be watching the stream, wait 30s after the QSO,
and hear Ray "repeat" it on stream. But is that on Ray, or on the other op?
I would argue the S&Per is breaking the rules because that person is using
a non-amateur means to complete the QSO, exactly like if the S&Per texted
W2RE what his exchange is. It's analogous to a gun manufacturer being
liable for deaths caused by their guns. The catch is in the texting case,
W2RE is an accomplice to the S&Pers violation. On a stream, is W2RE an
accomplice in the same way? You would have to say that W2REs purpose for
the stream is to give his S&Pers a second chance, but the evidence doesn't
lead me to that conclusion.
Jeez. I spend way too much time writing emails on this list. I'm sorry to
write a brick of text but this is CQ-contest, and it's the one place on the
world wide web full of other contesters where discussions like these can be
hashed out into action.
-Sterling N0SSC
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 8:36 PM <donovanf@starpower.net> wrote:
T his video of the RHR Live Stream reveals violations of four General
Rules for all ARRL Contests:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aydTZN4nLfU
What are the specific violations shown in the video?
1. CQs (i.e., soliciting a contact) were relayed via the internet
2. Exchanges (a necessary half of every QSO) were relayed via the
internet
3. end-of-QSO solications (i.e., QRZs) were relayed via the internet
4. His 14155 frequency was shown multiple times during the live
stream
5.
What specific General Rules for all ARRL Contests were violated?
3.9. Contacts made through repeaters, digipeaters, or gateways are not
permitted
1. 3.9.1. This applies to all forms of active relays or repeaters.
2. 3.10. The use of non-Amateur Radio means of communication (for
example, Internet or telephone) to solicit a contact (or contacts) during
the contest period is not permitted.
3. 3.14. In contests where spotting nets are permissible, spotting
your own station or requesting another station to spot you is not
permitted.
73
Frank
W3LPL
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
1.
7.
8.
9.
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