YES, absolutely!
The 6000 appears to be much better than all previous FLEX radios.
But now maybe you understand why I was very skeptical about the 6000.
And, Rob even described the 5000 as "BDR sinking by 23dB at field day when
operated on the same band as another TX."
73 - Rick, DJ0IP
(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Moreschi
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 4:10 PM
To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
Subject: Re: [TenTec] On Noisy Transmitters
Ok, that was before the Flex 6000 series came out.
Carl Moreschi N4PY
58 Hogwood Rd
Louisburg, NC 27549
www.n4py.com
On 7/6/2014 9:35 AM, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP wrote:
> GM Carl,
>
> September 10, 2012 at 1:44am
>
> Source:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Regarding-K3-close-in-phase-noise
> -vs-th e-Kenwood-TS-590-and-Flex-radios-td7562351.html
>
> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Carl
> Moreschi
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 2:53 PM
> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] On Noisy Transmitters
>
> What was the date of this letter from Wayne?
>
> Carl Moreschi N4PY
> 58 Hogwood Rd
> Louisburg, NC 27549
> www.n4py.com
>
> On 7/6/2014 8:46 AM, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP wrote:
>> THIS IS A LONG EMAIL. DELETE NOW IF YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE
> TRUTH...
>>
>> Of course "noisy transmitters" is one of my hottest hot buttons.
>> Every time I bring up the topic, it usually morphs into blaming it on
>> the Lids.
>>
>> So this time I will put some meat behind my claim and invite all of
>> you to read what one of the industry's top experts, Wayne Burdick,
>> N6KR, co-found and chief technical architect for Elecraft, has to say
>> about noise and other
>> radios:
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Regarding K3 close-in phase noise vs. the Kenwood TS-590 and Flex
>> radios
>>
>> By Wayne Burdick, N6KR
>>
>> Phase noise was recently discussed on the K3 Yahoo group, and I
>> thought I'd add my two cents. Or maybe three :)
>>
>> The K3's phase noise at 1 kHz is pretty much state-of-the-art for a
>> DDS (direct digital synthesis) reference driving a wide-frequency-
>> range, low-noise PLL (phase locked loop). We took things a step
>> further by using a very narrow crystal filter after the DDS (about
>> 2.5 kHz), dramatically cleaning up the DDS even before application to
>> the PLL. This forced us to use some pretty hairy math in calculating
>> the PLL divider values, but it was worth the effort.
>>
>> The TS590 (and all currently shipping Flex radios) use a synth
>> subsystem that is quite different from the K3's. They use an
>> unfiltered DDS as their local oscillator, with no following PLL.
>>
>> There are some advantages to this design choice. First, and maybe the
>> most relevant: it's cheaper than a DDS-driven-PLL overall, requiring
>> very few analog parts, essentially no alignment, and far less PCB
>> space. Second, such radios might have slightly lower phase noise at
>> some very close offset--although at such spacings, other factors such
>> as keying bandwidth or IMD typically dominate. Finally, use of a raw
>> DDS allows the VFO to switch frequencies rapidly. Such agility might
>> be useful for some digital modulation schemes.
>>
>> However, that raw DDS VFO comes with a price: its output has many
>> discrete spurs that can, at specific VFO frequencies, cause "ghost"
>> signals to appear. This is due to mixing between the DDS spurs and
>> strong signals appearing anywhere inside the receiver's band-pass
>> filter (many MHz in most receivers, but not the K3--more on that
>> later). This is true even with the 14-bit DDS word size described in
>> the TS590's sales brochure.
>>
>> The usual way to eliminate these wide-band spurs is to use a PLL to
>> clean up the DDS's output. Ironically, that sales brochure I
>> mentioned implies that eliminating the PLL was an advantage. Maybe
>> they were thinking about reduced manufacturing cost, though this
>> wasn't stated explicitly.
>>
>> (BTW, a typical lab receive mixing test done at just one test
>> frequency will not necessarily show this characteristic. To reveal
>> the DDS spurs, you'd need to do such a test at many frequencies,
>> moving the VFO in very small increments. This is because the spurs
>> are the product of multiple digital sampling phenomena; they vary
>> rapidly in frequency and amplitude as the DDS's control word is
>> changed. The lack of such testing and transparency in the industry
>> could explain why mixing spurs are *not* a hot topic of conversation
>> among those considering a radio using a raw DDS VFO. Yet, like real
>> ghosts, the resulting signals could, nonetheless, sneak up on you :)
>>
>> It is certainly a lot more expensive to add a high-performance PLL
>> into the system--just ask my engineering and manufacturing staff. But
>> I guess it depends on what you're trying to optimize. We wanted the
>> K3 to perform extremely well in crowded band conditions, so we went
>> to the trouble to use a DDS-driven-PLL synth. (Or TWO of these synths
>> if you have the KRX3 sub receiver installed.) Flex may have elected
>> to go with raw DDS because of the need for a very agile VFO for SDR
>> applications. Kenwood may have been trying to keep costs low. Both
>> are certainly worthy goals.
>>
>> Actually, we made it even harder on ourselves with the K3. We provide
>> narrow band-pass filters on every ham band, painstakingly aligned at
>> the factory, ensuring that as little out-of-band energy as possible
>> is presented to the mixer in the first place. This makes the synth's
>> job a little easier. Yet nearly all other transceivers these days use
>> "half-octave" band-pass filters that are many times the width of the
>> ham-band segment. They require no alignment, but they open the radio
>> up to more interfering signals. (You can add general-coverage band-
>> pass filters to the K3's main and/or sub receivers, of course, by
>> adding KBPF3 module. This has no effect on the ham-band performance.)
>>
>> Note that like the K3, the KX3 uses a DDS-driven PLL synth. The K3
>> has an advantage in temperature stability since it uses a separate
>> reference oscillator, but the KX3's phase noise is in the same very
>> low range, as evidenced by Sherwood's numbers.
>>
>> Many other factors besides synth phase noise--including transmit
>> signal purity and receiver AGC behavior--also contribute to
>> performance in crowded conditions. This is why, some time ago, we
>> undertook a major redesign of the K3's AGC subsystem. This resulted
>> in excellent field reports from DXpeditions, etc., regarding the
>> dynamics of within-filter signals.
>>
>> I won't go deeply into the SSB transmit purity issue, which has been
>> adequately described by others. But I will mention that the K3's TX
>> IMD at max power output is as good as or better than that of any
>> other 12-volt-capable transmitter. And if you run at lower power when
>> driving an amp (typically 20-70 W), the IMD numbers are outstanding
>> by any measure.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> DON'T THINK THE PROBLEM IS LIMITED TO FLEX AND KENWOOD.
>> Icom and Yaesu are generally just as bad, unless you purchase their
>> high end radios!
>>
>> Next time you recommend someone buy a JA radio, first make sure the
>> he lives far enough away from you that he won't pollute your airwaves.
>>
>> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bob
>> McGraw
>> - K4TAX
>> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 2:30 PM
>> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>> Subject: [TenTec] On Noisy Transmitters
>>
>> Rick brings up a very good point on transmitter noise. It is
>> something most users won't likely realize is something that does
>> truly
> exist.
>>
>> I find, with several I've measured, do produce wide band noise that
>> is transmitted across the spectrum. Basically it is polluting our
>> bands with noise, somewhat like one throwing trash out along the
>> highway or leaving it in the city park.
>>
>> I for one am glad to see RSGB does measure and report this. I wish
>> ARRL would do the same. Of course it might affect their advertising
>> revenue to report a certain brand and model radio is a broadband
>> noise
> generator.
>>
>> I've just finished a weekend operation at Field Day. Using the Eagle
>> I found there was no noise generated when it went into transmit. {I
>> already knew this as I had measured it on the bench, which is one
>> reason I elected to use the radio.} To that end, I know, I had my
>> spectrum analyzer sitting on the table. As to other radios operating
>> at the Field Day sight, well I could see the noise floor rise when
>> they transmitted. Some worse than others.
>>
>> Many of the radio companies are "self certifying" thus indicated
>> their product meets FCC specifications regarding purity of transmission.
>> The question is "do they really meet the specification or just say
>> they
> do?".
>> I strongly suspect if many of these brands and models were evaluated
>> by an independent testing lab, they would not meet the requirements
>> an thus would not be legal to be sold or used in the US or other
>> countries for that matter.
>>
>> Be a good citizen, "Give a hoot and don't pollute".
>>
>> 73
>> Bob, K4TAX
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP"<Rick@DJ0IP.de>
>> To: "'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'"<tentec@contesting.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 6:37 AM
>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] TT Mega Sale
>>
>>
>>> Actually the FTdx3000 has a noisy transmitter.
>>> You wouldn't know it by reading the ARRL review, but RSGB's Radcom
>>> reported that for it and the FTdx1200.
>>>
>>> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>>> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Richard Tschur
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 12:39 PM
>>> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] TT Mega Sale
>>>
>>>
>>> Bry,
>>> I just bought a second hand Eagle for pretty much the same price as
>>> they sell a new one now, well it is a little annoying, but I got the
>>> best radio
>>
>>> I
>>> have ever had and have! So I don't worry too much about that fact. I
>>> have now 16 Ten Tec's and I love them all and they all stay here,
>>> means they are all keeper's! What I don't understand is, why do you
>>> wish you would have bought an FTDX 3000??? For me, any Jap radio is
>>> Chicken Soup, a Ten Tec is Eye Fillet! I would not want one for free.
>>> I'm just listening to my Eagle in the background and it sounds sooo
>>> sweet and quiet, RF gain down a fair bit, very much like FM with
>>> squelch. Just beautiful. I will never buy another Jap radio whatsoever.
>>> And in regards to the mega sale, I'm sure TT knows what they are
>>> doing and I'm also very sure, that this is not the end for TT!
>>> Guy's, be happy, we get a nice discount on the best radio's on the
>>> market! I just wish they would be a lot more popular here in VK.
>>> They love their "Chicken Soup" ;-))!
>>> 73's
>>> Richard VK3KVK
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 04/07/14 11:31, Brian Carling wrote:
>>>> Annoying!! I just bought a used Omni VII for the same price they
>>>> suddenly
>>> changed to for the new ones. Now I wish I had bought an FTDX3000.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards - Bry Carling
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 3, 2014, at 6:53 PM, Toby
>>>>> Pennington<w4cakk@centurylink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> These rigs are way overpriced anyway and it is good to see some
>>>>> realistic
>>> pricing especially of the Omni 7 and the Eagle.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do feel for the guys who may be trying to sell these rigs on the
>>>>> used
>>> market, or those who bought something before the sale began. This
>>> kind
> of
>>> sale is a FIRST for Ten Tec, and obviously may signify more than just
a
>>> sale, perhaps something new is about to appear, or will come our
>>> way by the end of this year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Toby K4NH
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/3/2014 5:44 PM, Jim Vohland wrote:
>>>>>> Wow, that sure is a sale. Maybe some of the Ten Tec guru's can
>>>>>> explain
>>> but this sure doesnt make sense from a business perspective to me.
>>> Knocking
>>> a grand off the Omni VII. 800 off the eagle and 300 off a Agro. I
>>> wish I was in the market for a new rig. Kinda scary though and makes
>>> me wonder about the future. Seems like a 'fire' sale. Just
>>> sayin.......Shoots the heck out of the used market for those trying
>>> to sell eagles and omni's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> TenTec mailing list
>>>>>> TenTec@contesting.com
>>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TenTec mailing list
>>>>> TenTec@contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TenTec mailing list
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>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>>
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