Fellow contesters,
Please, let's refrain from calling discussions inane or referring to the
motivations of people as suspect. We're all expressing honest opinions here.
Ad hominem attacks do nothing except cause ill will and exposing the
foolishness of the attacker.
I think the central point here is missed by many responses. The discussion is
not about what the current rules define as "Assisted". The great majority of
us are very clear on that. The discussion is about what we think assisted
should be based on our own measurement, as decided by us, the contest
community. *We* decide the rules, the sponsors merely reflect our opinion as
the users, to a lesser or greater fidelity. There is no "they".
Many responses are of the form "but xyz helps us also, how is that any
different?". Some seem to suggest that this is the beginning of some backwards
slippery slope. A steady backwards technology slip seems very unlikely and
inconsistent with history to me. But I do see significant differences between
some types of help and others. Forget what is generally useful, and think
instead about the core concept, what helps make the QSO?
Automatic antenna switching, memory and voice keyers, and many other things are
logistical aids. They help the station run smoothly and reduce fatigue but
don't directly make contacts. The duping process is irrelevant, as duping is
allowed in any case. The country list is irrelevant as the sponsor determines
your score, not you, and knowing what the countries are is not generally a core
issue.
Knowing the callsign and exchange of the station you worked *IS* the key issue.
So SCP affects the core of the QSO process. The same is true for fill files.
Personally, I believe that it is too late and too difficult to put this "cat
back in the bag" by redefining "assisted", but I am 100% understanding of those
who desire it. And I'm no Luddite, I was part of the core of these advances
back in the days of DOS.
73,
Drew K3PA
-----Original message-----
From:cq-contest-request@contesting.com
Sent:Thu 12-03-2015 08:37 am
Subject:CQ-Contest Digest, Vol 156, Issue 7
To:cq-contest@contesting.com;
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than "Re: Contents of CQ-Contest digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Is it time that the contest sponsors officiallyidentify
SCP as "assisted?" (Yuri VE3XB)
2. Re: Is it time that the contest sponsors officiallyidentify
SCP as "assisted?" (Ed Muns)
3. Fwd: 20th Stew Perry TopBand DX Challange (Lew Sayre)
4. Re: High Rate Dual Radio CQing (Ken Low)
5. Re: Is it time that the contest sponsors officially identify
SCP as "assisted?" (Kevan Nason)
6. Re: Is it time that the contest sponsors officially identify
SCP as "assisted?" (Dale Putnam)
7. Re: High Rate Dual Radio CQing (Roberts, Will)
8. Re: High Rate Dual Radio CQing (Ricardo Navarrete)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 22:31:47 -0500
From: "Yuri VE3XB" <ve3xb@rogers.com>
To: <cq-contest@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Is it time that the contest sponsors
officiallyidentify SCP as "assisted?"
Message-ID: <000001d12d7b$24cce490$6e66adb0$@rogers.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"
Years back during a contest at our club station we had a special guy who was
checking dupes (remember those huge lined sheets marked ABCD... 123...?)
I also remember doing it by myself and that was a hardship!
So when logging programs took dupe checking over that was a great relief. I
don't think that using SCP provides more "assistance" than a logger doing
this hideous job for us. Should using loggers for this purpose also be
considered as -(A)?
And the last - how much SCP will help to distinguish between VE3XD and
VE3XB?
73 Yuri VE3XB
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 20:41:05 -0800
From: "Ed Muns" <ed@w0yk.com>
To: "'Radio K0HB'" <kzerohb@gmail.com>,<w2up@comcast.net>
Cc: <wa5rtg@gmail.com>,<john@kk9a.com>,<cq-contest@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Is it time that the contest sponsors
officiallyidentify SCP as "assisted?"
Message-ID: <4609000D580C41F4917B37CE30F118D2@h81420t>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
What if the title or label for "Single-Operator Assisted" were
"Single-Operator Category B"? Would it then be easier to live with the
category definition created by the contest sponsor?
SOA is just the name of an entry category. Yet, year after year, we have
these inane threads about what each of us thinks the word "assistance"
should mean. The debate is completely irrelevant. All that matters is how
the contest sponsor defines the category, regardless of the legacy name for
that category.
Ed W0YK
-----Original Message-----
From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
Radio K0HB
Sent: 02 December, 2015 14:45
To: w2up@comcast.net
Cc: wa5rtg@gmail.com; john@kk9a.com; cq-contest@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Is it time that the contest sponsors officially
identify SCP as "assisted?"
The "no code reader" rule bugs me a little bit.
It seems a departure from the "no outside source of Call/QRG" paradigm which
previously was the generally accepted definition of assistance.
Perhaps the sponsor could share their rationale for this restriction. ?As a
long time CW guy with failing ears...... ?Well, let's just say that it's a
growing crowd.
__73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"?
On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 2:37 PM, w2up@comcast.net <w2up@comcast.net> wrote:
> Yes, automation is on the way. Last month I drove from Denver to Vegas
and back with no foot on the pedal and no hands on the steering wheel for
1400 of the 1700 mile trip. Compared to that, automated contesting is easy!
?
> Barry W2UP?
> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
> ------ Original message------From: Stan StocktonDate: Wed, Dec 2, 2015
8:35 AMTo: john@kk9a.com;Cc: cq-contest@contesting.com;Subject:Re:
[CQ-Contest] Is it time that the contest sponsors officially identify SCP as
"assisted?"
> Making code readers cause you to be in assisted category is a stop measure
to total automation. After lunch the other day, my bother who is not a ham
and who heard nothing but talk of all this for an hour during lunch, told me
that it seemed a very small step to go from what is being done by a human to
total automation.73...Stan, K5GO/ZF2ET> On Dec 2, 2015, at 8:00 AM,
"john@kk9a.com" wrote:> > Until recently I thought that assisted meant
getting outside assistance to> find stations, typically multipliers. Skimmer
made this more complicated> as it really is not anyone else helping you find
stations. Then the> committee changed the rules to include code readers as
assisted. Certainly> logging software and computer generated CW are also
some type of> assistance or why would we use them. There would be no way to
run on two> bands simultaneously using a keyer and pad of paper. Where does
this end?> > John KK9A> > > To: cq-contest@contesting.com> Subject:
[CQ-Contest] Is it time that the contest sponsors officially> identify SCP
as "assisted?"> From: kr2q@optimum.net> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015
23:26:40 +0000 (GMT)> List-post: mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com>> Yes,
the sponsors (or their committees) make the rules and the definitions.> > In
CQWW and other contests, use of a database to alter calls is not>
allowed...post contest.> > There can be zero doubt that using SCP is using a
database assembled by> others.> Is there really a difference in changing a
callsign during the contest via> use> of a db as> compared to changing it
after the contest via a database? Think about it.> > Please focus on the
"database" aspect rather than the timing aspect.> > If CQWW can recognize
use of a CW decoder (any type, not just skimmer> type) as> assisted,> then
why not recognize use of SCP as assisted?> > For me (IMHO), use of SCP is
far more "assisted" than use of a cw decoder.> > If SCP partial is not
helping you "copy" the callsign, then why use it? > Would> you be happy> to
operate without it? If yes, then say so. If no, say so...and please>
clarify why not.> > This is an old tune for me. See my NCJ article from May
1996, which covers> many topics,> including SCP. Don't have it available?
Write me and I'll send you a copy.> > Some things never change....or can
they?> > Usual disclaimer about my opinion versus my membership on the
CQWWCC.> > de Doug KR2Q> > _______________________________________________>
CQ-Contest mailing list> CQ-Contest@contesting.com>
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest_____________________
__________________________CQ-Contest mailing
listCQ-Contest@contesting.comhttp://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq
-contest
> _______________________________________________
> CQ-Contest mailing list
> CQ-Contest@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
_______________________________________________
CQ-Contest mailing list
CQ-Contest@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 22:04:54 -0800
From: Lew Sayre <w7ew@arrl.net>
To: "topband@contesting.com" <topband@contesting.com>,
cq-contest@contesting.com
Subject: [CQ-Contest] Fwd: 20th Stew Perry TopBand DX Challange
Message-ID:
<CAPqMs-ko+c2dHE6aPOMU+KqFjOUYCGWsJ4WgKE=r0oaPLafC8A@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Greetings to the Ditters and Dawters of the 160M Realm,
The evil snow, ice, winds and politicians are all afoot now... but
the bright spot is
coming your way 1500Z Dec. 26 to 1500Z Dec. 27 in the form of the 20th
Edition
of The Stew Perry TopBand DX Challenge sponsored by The Boring Amateur
Radio Club.
This is the fairest contest in our known galaxy. It is a Morse Code (CW)
contest where
the exchange is your call-sign and your grid-square. Through magic, the
astute log
checkers of our massive club are able to determine how far away your
contact was
with another station. The idea is that far away contacts are worth more
than close in
contacts. Also, you get extra points for working low power and QRP stations
which delights
the lesser powered stations and rewards you for sticking with that -27dB
signal in the mush
until you can discern the call and grid-square. You should really browse
on over to:
www.kkn.net/stew/ and read the rules and see the other cool stuff
there.
The following Giants of Contesting are sponsoring plaques for The
Stew. These Luminaries
have offered up a category to spur on the radio combatants and have sent in
the $60
($63-PayPal) to spice up the competition. Please give positive
affirmations to these
radio competition Stalwarts when you see them...or at least buy them a
beverage.
Yes, We are aware that KL7RA is SK. He was The Boring Amateur Radio
Club
Chairman of the Contest Food and Drink Committee among other duties.
We miss him greatly.
KL7RA Top # of QSOs
North Pole Contest Group To be decided
K7FL/5H2DA Top Score 100% Search & Pounce
KR2Q Golden Log Award
N0TT Top Score < 21y/o, >200 QSOs
K7CA Top Score China
TF3KX Aurora Borealis Award- Top Score North
of 60 deg N
geomagnetic Latitude
Dr. Beldar-L1AR Top Score,S/O, Temp Antenna erected after
Dec.14
UX1UA Top # NA + SA QSOs by Zone 16 Station
UX1UA USA Station with Top # QSOs with Zone 16
K6ND K6ND Memorial- Top Score, S/O, World
K1EP Top LP score between 30deg N and 40deg
N latitude
(Any station located in xM## grid
square)
KH6LC VK-ZL Challenge- Top Score,S/O, VL/ZL
N6TQ/A25TQ California Dreaming- Top # of QSOs with
California
stations by a non-California
station
W2GD Team Top # QSOs with NA/SA, by a EU station
W7RH Top Score, Low Power, Asia
K7CA Top Score from Zone 24, 27 or 28
K7CA Top Score from either Zone 19 or 25
VK6VZ- Flying Doctors Top Score- N. Hemisphere station working
of VK Baseball hat S. Hemisphere stations
To see if you have remembered to pay for your plaque go to:
http://www.kkn.net/stew/plaques.txt
You also may join this stellar group by proffering a suitable category
you would like to see emphasized and then sending along the funds.
We have been petitioned to have a Stew Perry SSB contest.
After vigorous and protracted discussions among our various committees
we strongly feel that the language of 160M is CW. There will be no SSB
version sponsored by The Boring Amateur Radio Club unless we are
bought out by Amazon, Google, Facebook or Yahoo. And maybe not
even then.
Please get on the 160M airwaves this weekend as the ARRL has
nicely scheduled a great Stew warm-up called strangely enough
The ARRL 160M Contest- CW.
The winning plaques for the 2014 Stew Perry will be sent to the winners
very soon as the little old plaque-maker has been working on them
diligently.
See you in The Stew!
73 and I remain,
Lew w7ew
w7ew@arrl.net
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 07:25:11 -0500
From: Ken Low <kenke3x@gmail.com>
To: cq-contest@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] High Rate Dual Radio CQing
Message-ID: <466678EE-B96D-4FF5-9DC1-57A5BE1632CC@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii
Someone commented there was no audio on the ZF2MJ YouTube video. To hear
audio of a MorseRunner run at 60wpm, click here for a sample from YT6W, a
frequent HST competitor:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0xQwAh7POuw
Now imagine you hear two audio streams like that, one in each ear, for 48
hours, and you get a sense for what Dan and Jose just did.
As a comparison to world-class single-stream MorseRunner, see the HST 2015
results here:
http://www.hst2015.org/results/2014/hst2014.pdf
The top Men's score was Goran YT7AW at 4,398 points over a 10-minute run in HST
Mode, with 4 Callsigns continuously. The top Ladies score was Anna RA4FVL (I
would guess she's 22 years old now) at 4,242 points.
My QRZ page shows a sample MorseRunner run at 3,232 points which equates to 324
QSO's per hour (with a single audio stream). So the top HST guys can do about
425-450 per hour with a single audio stream, although A) they crank the
Transmit speed up to 120wpm to save time (not really possible in a real
pileup), and B) those 4 simulated MorseRunner stations are awfully
well-behaved, and there are not 5-10 of them all zero-beat together!
What Dan and Jose did is a logical evolution of high rate contesting using
existing building blocks. Kudos to them both for the hard work they put in to
reach the next level!
Ken KE3X
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 08:30:25 -0500
From: Kevan Nason <knason00@gmail.com>
To: Radio K0HB <kzerohb@gmail.com>
Cc: w2up@comcast.net, wa5rtg@gmail.com, john@kk9a.com, CQ Contest
<cq-contest@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Is it time that the contest sponsors
officially identify SCP as "assisted?"
Message-ID:
<CAA6OJLq1bNdZGe9tDWhMtcnPZMsosJceWpBN_yPbMN=eOgQ=Xg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Hans, I sympathize with the hearing loss. Mine is on the downhill slide
itself, but not too bad yet.
We had a brief discussion about code readers on our local contest club
reflector. Some felt the same way you do. I don?t, but would like to
understand your reasoning for thinking a code reader is not assistance. I
haven?t gotten what I see as a reasonable explanation yet, but am still
open to listening.
Being purely subjective, at a gut level it seems if for some reason (code
too fast, tone deaf, ear infection, or whatever?) you are unable to copy a
call sign on your own and need a code reader (or another person) to do it
for you then, by definition of the word, you needed assistance to make the
q. So you should enter as Assisted. What am I missing? I used to compete
as unassisted. Now I operate assisted. Life doesn?t stay still.
That reasoning seems so obvious to me I personally never even thought
someone using a code reader would even consider entering the unassisted
category. I was surprised at the uproar this rule change has created. I?ve
heard several people say over the years that they can?t copy peoples? call
signs because so many other ops send at 30+ WPM, and their own code speed
is only at 20 WPM. They say they need a decoder to work them. Those same
people enter as unassisted. That just doesn?t make sense to me. If I had to
hazard a guess I?d say that is likely behind the rule change
I did use a code reader when I first started contesting and know what a
help they can be. I used to be a 40 WPM guy, but after being out of CW for
20 years was barely able to copy 20 WPM. I was like others and needed a
reader to copy those guys at 30 WPM. They were just too fast for me. I had
been just a casual op working whatever DX I could find in a contest. Then
it dawned on me I liked contesting. Once I started sending in scores as
being unassisted it meant, to me, I couldn?t use a decoder to help get the
call and exchange. So I stopped using a decoder. Now I?m back up to 30+ for
contests and don't need one, but if I used a decoder I would enter as
assisted just because of that -- no matter if the rule stated what should
seems so obvious (to me at least) or not. I'm a Maintenance Planner and
know you can't write a rule (instruction) to cover every possible
situation. You have to depend on a worker's knowledge and sound judgement
to successfully complete a task. Again, what am I missing in thinking it
should be obvious using a code reader is assistance and sound judgement
would say if you use one then you should enter as being assisted?
>From the CQWW Rules:
VIII.2 QSO finding assistance: The use of any technology or other source
that provides call sign or multiplier identification of a signal to the
operator.
(Although this last bit isn?t going to stop some, this question is solely
about CW decoders and not how SCP, Band Maps, Voice Keyers or anything else
may or may not be assistance. Those are different topics. :-> )
Kevan
N4XL
On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 5:45 PM, Radio K0HB <kzerohb@gmail.com> wrote:
> The "no code reader" rule bugs me a little bit.
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 07:02:43 -0700
From: Dale Putnam <daleputnam@hotmail.com>
To: "ed@w0yk.com" <ed@w0yk.com>, 'Radio K0HB' <kzerohb@gmail.com>,
"w2up@comcast.net" <w2up@comcast.net>
Cc: "wa5rtg@gmail.com" <wa5rtg@gmail.com>, "john@kk9a.com"
<john@kk9a.com>,"cq-contest@contesting.com"
<cq-contest@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Is it time that the contest sponsors
officially identify SCP as "assisted?"
Message-ID: <COL131-W1218D3DFA35B1BBCC04474D00D0@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
So if a coder reader is used, and that allows one to enter unassisted, entering
unassisted after using skimmers,and RBN, is also unasssisted, and passes the
"sniff" test, of being a code reader, just located "over there". ok....When I
look at the certificates on the wall, some being 30 -50 years old... I would
have a tuff time trying to remember which ones I used which antenna, which one
I used the lastest hardware, which one used this radio or that... I sure won't
remember IF or WHEN I used a skimmer, RBN, or ??? EXCEPT.. that if I, me
personnally, my choice, choose to enter using that or something like that.. I
will ALWAYS remember it. I have gotten so I make notes as to what antenna I
used to do this or that with now..
Have a great day,
--... ...--
Dale - WC7S in Wy
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 14:03:00 +0000
From: "Roberts, Will" <Will.Roberts@duke-energy.com>
To: "cq-contest@contesting.com" <cq-contest@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] High Rate Dual Radio CQing
Message-ID:
<376E029D60458F4E824C3229E9CB9B9B49AB1865@IMCLTEXCP62.nam.ent.duke-energy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I don't think doing "dual CQs" on different bands is a very new concept. It
just takes a tremendous amount of skill to pull it off. Another factor in this
is that it takes a very short exchange (such as CQWW) for this to work well.
Using this technique in other contests with serial numbers or longer exchanges
becomes less smooth and extremely fatiguing. The fact that Dan was able to do
this pretty much for the entire 48 hour contest is the most amazing part to me!
Imagine what the ZF2MJ score would have been from a 3 point country. Possibly
enough to lure N5TJ out of retirement?
73,
Will AA4NC
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 14:33:25 -0500
From: "john@kk9a.com<mailto:john@kk9a.com>"
<john@kk9a.com<mailto:john@kk9a.com>>
To: cq-contest@contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] High Rate Dual Radio CQing
Message-ID:
<79f6b630e8a5bdfc3b076a661a5eec93.squirrel@www11.qth.com<79f6b630e8a5bdfc3b076a661a5eec93.squirrel@www11.qth.com">mailto:79f6b630e8a5bdfc3b076a661a5eec93.squirrel@www11.qth.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Running on two radios simultaneously has been done in previous years and there
is at least one station in the Caribbean doing it in phone contests.
John KK9A
To: sawyered@earthlink.net<mailto:sawyered@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] High Rate Dual Radio CQing
From: Matt Murphy <matt@nq6n.com<mailto:matt@nq6n.com>>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 10:32:16 -0600
I agree. It's extremely impressive. Was there a rule change that allowed this
to happen this year, or did N6MJ and Ct1BOH come up with the idea?
Can't wait to see if my brain can do it using a simulator.
73
Matt NQ6N
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 15:13:56 +0100
From: Ricardo Navarrete <ricardoea4zk@gmail.com>
To: Ken Low <kenke3x@gmail.com>
Cc: CQ-Contest <cq-contest@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] High Rate Dual Radio CQing
Message-ID:
<CAAkyMcrk2ps-1=AVmhp_y_Y4op6UQtWykvtrxn08N_8zWhZ0xA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Thanks for the links, very interesting.
Btw that is like another sport , to reach the execellence , to be a
champion you need to practise every day like a football player does. Train
hard very hard and once you are exahusted then train a little bit more.
What do you need to train??? Time, one thing that I don't have and probably
I'll never have in the next 20 years until my children grow and let me some
space. They both are awesome and probably we find one of this guys each 100
like me.
73
73
Rick, EA4ZK/KH8ZK
Aranjuez, Madrid, Spain
Sent from my mobile device
El 03/12/2015 14:49, "Ken Low" <kenke3x@gmail.com> escribi?:
> Someone commented there was no audio on the ZF2MJ YouTube video. To hear
> audio of a MorseRunner run at 60wpm, click here for a sample from YT6W, a
> frequent HST competitor:
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0xQwAh7POuw
>
> Now imagine you hear two audio streams like that, one in each ear, for 48
> hours, and you get a sense for what Dan and Jose just did.
>
> As a comparison to world-class single-stream MorseRunner, see the HST 2015
> results here:
>
> http://www.hst2015.org/results/2014/hst2014.pdf
>
> The top Men's score was Goran YT7AW at 4,398 points over a 10-minute run
> in HST Mode, with 4 Callsigns continuously. The top Ladies score was Anna
> RA4FVL (I would guess she's 22 years old now) at 4,242 points.
>
> My QRZ page shows a sample MorseRunner run at 3,232 points which equates
> to 324 QSO's per hour (with a single audio stream). So the top HST guys
> can do about 425-450 per hour with a single audio stream, although A) they
> crank the Transmit speed up to 120wpm to save time (not really possible in
> a real pileup), and B) those 4 simulated MorseRunner stations are awfully
> well-behaved, and there are not 5-10 of them all zero-beat together!
>
> What Dan and Jose did is a logical evolution of high rate contesting using
> existing building blocks. Kudos to them both for the hard work they put
> in to reach the next level!
>
> Ken KE3X
> _______________________________________________
> CQ-Contest mailing list
> CQ-Contest@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
>
------------------------------
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