VHFcontesting
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Re: [VHFcontesting] Fwd: Digital and Q arrangement contesting

To: k5qe@k5qe.com, vhfcontesting@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Fwd: Digital and Q arrangement contesting
From: Stephen Hewlett via VHFcontesting <vhfcontesting@contesting.com>
Reply-to: Stephen Hewlett <stevehewlett@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:11:12 +0000 (UTC)
List-post: <mailto:vhfcontesting@contesting.com>
K5QE,
I read your post on Digital and Q Arrangement Contesting with interest. I 
couldn't agree more with your first four paragraphs ... they are very well 
written, logical, and make sense to me. It is the fifth, and final, paragraph 
that I'm not in complete agreement with.
Subjective qualifiers such as "better", "happier", "problems", and whether or 
not something is "broken" are, like beauty, in the eyes of the beholder. Not 
all small stations (I am one of the very small stations) are happier nor are 
some of the middling to larger stations, as evidenced by some of the posts on 
this reflector. I suppose it is easy to write off contrary opinions in favor of 
legacy approaches to contesting as being held by Luddites who refuse to 
modernize and get with the program; but that ignores the subjective factors. As 
I mentioned in a previous post. some of us prefer to do the communicating 
ourselves rather than to by-and-large watch our computers work other computers, 
are sole contribution being a few mouse clicks here and there. People engage in 
VHF contests for different reasons and not everyone who does so is solely 
interested in maximizing their score and hoping to win something or place well. 
Some of us enjoy using our traditional operating skills w/o computer assistance 
and don't derive much joy out of the computer approach. And some of us enjoy 
using and working on older radios that are not easily, if at all, linked to 
computers.
I personally think there should be separate categories in the big VHF contests 
for traditional modes and digital modes. One could use both modes and have a 
score in each mode, plus an overall score. As an analogy, chess tournaments now 
bar the use of computers (including cell phones) and those caught with them are 
forfeited and banned. There is a good reason for this as no chess player can 
successfully compete with modern chess playing software. There are separate 
chess tournaments held for chess computers/software and their handlers.

73, Steve N4NIV

-----Original Message-----
From: Marshall-K5QE <k5qe@k5qe.com>
To: vhfcontesting <vhfcontesting@contesting.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 22, 2019 10:18 pm
Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Fwd: Digital and Q arrangement contesting

Hello everyone interested in this topic:  The essence of legacy 
contesting is "spin the dial and turn the antenna" and hope that you can 
find someone to work. Legacy contesting(HF contesting) is all about how 
you find stations not about how you work stations.  This is only a 
workable solution, because there is a seemingly endless parade of little 
stations to work on HF--think 100W and a dipole on 20M or 40M.  In the 
world of weak signal VHF, especially where the digital modes are 
concerned, you can "spin the dial and turn the antenna" and you will not 
find anyone to work(or at least very few).

JT65 digital EME signals are VERY weak, most of the time.  If you can 
actually hear a signal with your ear, it is a strong one.  You can tune 
the 2M EME band and hear one or two stations, but if you let WSJT "look" 
for signals, there might be dozens of stations there.  What I am trying 
to say is that "spinning the dial and turning the antenna" will not do 
very much.  Actually, in the case of EME, you know where to point the 
antenna.  The EME chat room(s) will let you know who is on, what 
frequency they are on, and what sequence.  This is critical information 
for stations that are quite workable, but below the noise level.

Meteor scatter signals are often somewhat stronger than EME signals.  
But they are completely random in time.  So, you can "spin the dial" and 
you will not hear anything, so you continue up the band.  A few seconds 
later, a big burn occurs, but you are now not listening on the frequency 
where the burn happened. The same can be said for turning the antenna.  
You may be pointed out west and then decide to turn the antenna slowly 
to the east.  That is when a ping will occur out west.  The situation 
for meteor scatter is somewhat better than EME, because by agreement 
there are now established "watering holes" where folks hang out for 
digital meteor scatter, at least for 6M and 2M.  Still, it really helps 
to know that W7XYZ/R is in DN12, calling CQ on 50.265MHz.

FT8 is somewhat similar to digital meteor scatter(MSK144). Signals are 
weak, often below what can be heard with the ear. So, "spinning the dial 
and turning the antenna" is not going to work.  Only because we have the 
agreed upon watering holes and the chat rooms can we figure out where 
anyone is....and what sequence they are on.

Several years ago, the ARRL removed the legacy HF type rules from VHF 
contesting.  The result has been a renaissance in VHF contesting.  The 
contests are much better now than under the old, restrictive HF type 
rules.  The rovers are MUCH happier as are the smaller stations who now 
have a chance to maximize the potential of their stations.  There were 
numerous problems with the old HF style rules for the VHF contests.  I 
don't know of any problems now.  Unless some serious problem can be 
found, LEAVE THE RULES ALONE!  Don't try to fix something that is NOT 
broken.

73 Marshall K5QE



On 9/23/2019 1:20 AM, Mike (KA5CVH) Urich wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 6:27 PM Dennis Allen <N9TZL@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> To me it has removed the radio related skills that one had learned to
> locate other stations and make Q's. There just are not allot of guys
> looking around trying to make Q's as before because they are on chat
> rooms and such making arrangements to make Q's instead of being on the
> radio which to me has greatly hurt VHF/UHF contesting!!  It has turned
> into a computer social operating contest not a radio operating
> contest!!
>
> Mike wrote
>
> I tend to largely agree.  "To me" ... there there is nothing more
> gratifying than spinning across the dial ... hearing that weak signal
> work another station.  You strain to listen to them work two maybe
> three other stations so you can pull out the call and grid so you know
> you've got them right and them make your call.  You may have to call
> them several times before they pull you out of the noise but when
> you've completed the Q and you are proud of your abilities to listen
> into the noise pull out the info, and repeatedly call them until you
> make the exchange.
>
> Now "that's" a Q
>
> --
> Mike Urich KA5CVH
> http://ka5cvh.com
>
> STX ASEC - Training
> PIO Harris County ARES
>
> We may be Volunteers,
> But we're professional.
>
>

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