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Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such

To: <>, <>
Subject: Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such
From: "Administrator" <>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:59:31 -0400
List-post: <>
This is not the place to debate state licensing laws or their 
application to business.  You are treading on areas that have 
been the subject of arguments between licensed Engineers (mostly 
Civil Engineers) and other businesses (the broadcast industry, 
Society of Broadcast Engineers, the railroads, the locomotive 
engineers' union, and many other high tech industries in which 
the title "Engineer" has been commonly used) for many years.  
There are cases currently making their way through the federal 
court system concerning the right of states (interstate commerce 
clause) to regulate the user of the term engineer and to attach  
state specific legal liabilities to the use of the title.  

The Amps reflector is not the place to even nibble at the edges 
of that debate.  Please let this branch of the thread die.  


   ... Administrator 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 
> [] On Behalf Of Will Matney
> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:44 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such
> Timothy,
> Not under Kentucky law. If the PE does stamp the drawings, he 
> must run the numbers also to determine if the design will 
> work and be safe. He simply cant stamp the drawing not doing 
> any calculations. That's also the same in West Virginia if a 
> draftsman does the design and the engineer in charge approves 
> it. Happens every day. If you didn't have this, an engineer 
> would not be able to sub-contract draftsman firms if they did 
> not do it themselves. I've personally seen some engineers 
> that couldn't draw themselves out of a wet paper bag, and had 
> to have the draftsman to do it. In each case with me, I tuned 
> over the calculations and the engineer re-did and checked 
> each. It's the same as sub-contracting an engineer in charge 
> I would think. In other words, you don't have to have them in 
> your employee.
> In Kentucky, I was told by the director, and is in the 
> statute, that even though you have a 4 year degree in that 
> field, you are still not allowed to call yourself an engineer 
> without having been licensed. They consider it a crime if you 
> do. That statute holds true here in Ohio as I read it, and I 
> would say West Virginia, but haven't read it. I'm not sure 
> what state you live in, but here it's way different according 
> to what I've been told and personally read.
> No, the director made it plain that ANY design work in 
> Kenticky was to be handled by an engineer and supposed to be 
> a PE. If it were a home or building, then an architect 
> handled it. I wish I had saved that e-mail as it opened my 
> eyes to a lot. I asked the question point blank, "you mean 
> that though I have my degree, I cant call my self an 
> engineer"? His words were "no". The reason I asked was, I 
> thought about moving back to Kentucky at the time. Your also 
> not allowed to advertize or have the word engineer associated 
> with your name. The way they see it is if anything could 
> possibly cause harm or be unsafe, and is manufactured to be 
> sold to the public, it has to be through a PE's approval. 
> Like Bill said, they turn their head to a lot and don't 
> investagate until someone makes a complaint.
> I agree that some of the best aren't licensed, but do work 
> under a PE. That's the way I worked at two different jobs 
> making mining machinery, trailers, and concrete forms. 
> Everything I done went across the PE's desk. If there was a 
> problem, I had to change it, but that never happened. If any 
> stress or strain calcs were done, I actually did them and 
> left them on the drawing in some cases. At my last job, I was 
> over the mechanical, electrical, and hydraulics on a complete 
> system/job. Plus was over the maintenance department as a 
> boss. You talk about not having time to wind your watch, that was it.
> Best,
> Will
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> On 6/27/06 at 7:50 AM Bolbach, Timothy wrote:
> >Will,   
> >     I beg to differ with you on several points.  But with lack of
> >time I'll just name a few.  
> >
> >     First, you can NOT just have a PE sign drawings.  They must be
> >"in responsible charge" of the design:. Meaning, they did the
> >calculations and were actively involved.  
> >
> >     Second, you do NOT have to be licensed to be called an engineer.
> >Industry standard is a 4 year qualified degree.  You may NOT 
> advertise
> >as a PE in a state you are not registered in, but you can 
> advertise as
> >an engineer.
> >
> >     You may be confusing "power systems design" with "electronic
> >design".  Two different worlds when it comes to PE.  The 
> only time you
> >need a PE for electronic equipment design is when attempting 
> to get UL,
> >CE or some other consumer related certification.  I don't 
> know of many
> >(any) amplifiers with UL approval.  
> >
> >     Some of the best system/equipment designs I have seen in the
> >past 30 years were by non-degreed designers.  My staff has 
> 45 of them.
> >They work closely with the 20+ engineers running the projects.  
> >
> >Just thought I'd mention it.    
> >
> >      
> >
> >
> >KD8CN
> >
> >Tim Bolbach PE (1983 OH)
> >Manager 
> >Process Automation
> >SSOE Inc 
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: 
> []
> >On Behalf Of Will Matney
> >Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:47 PM
> >To:
> >Subject: Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such
> >
> >Mike,
> >
> >I was at the Kentucky licensure website several years back, and you
> >could download the whole state law on this. I did and read 
> it through.
> >It said that if you designed any equipment for the public that was
> >electrical, you were supposed to carry a valid engineers 
> license in that
> >state. To be a PE there, you had to have a 4 year BSc degree in the
> >field, then work for two more years under a licensed PE as 
> an EIT to be
> >allowed to take the test. If you then could pass the test, you were
> >granted your license. I then e-mailed the director about 
> what I had read
> >and asked what all was included under design. He wrote back 
> and told me
> >it meant everything, and that designing anything without a 
> license was
> >breaking the law. He also mentioned that even using the term engineer
> >with your name was considered illegal. I don't have the link to the
> >website, but you can look this all up there if they haven't 
> changed it.
> >The director does answer the e-mails also.
> >
> >Now the way a lot of companies get around this is hiring 
> ones without a
> >license and placing them under a licensed engineer as a "designer" or
> >"draftsman". They'll have like a VP of Engineering who is 
> licensed, and
> >will view over any drawing before they hit the shop, or any materials
> >purchased. That's the way I worked at both places as I never 
> wanted to
> >get a license over law suits. Belive me, my boss was tied up in every
> >one they had and it was several at a time where it was 
> mining related.
> >You have people out there who are just waiting to say they 
> got hurt off
> >a piece of equipment to file a law suit. I helped bust one 
> of these by
> >designing and building a full scale model of a drill arm 
> with wood. The
> >guy suing was required to show how it happened in court, and his butt
> >couldn't hit the lever that he claimed caused his hand to be 
> mashed. The
> >man was found to have done this his self! After it got out, two other
> >employees stepped forward and verified what the guy done.
> >
> >Another way around this if you own a business is to have an EE or ME
> >look at all the prints, ok the design, and stamp it. That 
> relieves you
> >of any liability. I did this when I ran the shop I had as I 
> was building
> >equipment for the railroads and the coal mines. I had friends doing
> >both, and I paid them for their professional services.
> >
> >I think the state licensure boards turn a blind eye to a lot unless
> >someone reports something or your a large corporation. Then, 
> if they do,
> >you better have all your ducks in a row, or one could be 
> looking at both
> >fines and jail time. If you get a chance, drop by that website, or
> >e-mail the director. He can enlighten you more really than 
> the law that
> >is written as he knows how the courts interpret it.
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Will
> >
> >
> >*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> >
> >On 6/26/06 at 3:44 PM Michael Tope wrote:
> >
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Will Matney" <>
> >>
> >>> Gary,
> >>>
> >>> You would think being sued is the worst part. What if a 
> disgruntled 
> >>> customer reported you to the state license board? You 
> would then have
> >
> >>> a review about your engineering license. Here, they beileve the 
> >>> reporter more, and your guilty to them having to prove yourself 
> >>> innocent. If they pull your license, you can no longer be an 
> >>> engineer. If one even says
> >>that
> >>> you can do this over a limit, and they see this, you 
> could sure loose
> >>that
> >>> slip of paper and your stamp. According to how bad it is, 
> or what all
> >>the
> >>> reporter said to them, it could be a temporary suspension 
> all the way
> >
> >>> to
> >>a
> >>> permenant. It's according to what you can prove. Then, I 
> guess one 
> >>> could find a job as a draftsman or in sales. It's worse 
> today too. 
> >>> People have gotten law suit crazy, and attorneys don't hold no 
> >>> punches back if they think there's extra money they can 
> collect. Even
> >
> >>> if you fight all this succesfully, how much out of pocket 
> expense did
> >
> >>> it cost you? Even though things can be done over the 
> limit, I will 
> >>> har dly ever tell someone to do something other than published
> >standards.
> >>> Heck, if you tell someone to build something some way, 
> and it doesn't
> >>work
> >>> out, you can be in trouble for doing engineering without 
> a license! 
> >>> That is if someone is mad enough to report you. Another 
> thing is if 
> >>> you've designed something to be used by another 
> manufacturer. They 
> >>> will sue for down time if your product caused it. That 
> can run into
> >tons of money.
> >>The
> >>> reason I know about this is I used to have to design and 
> build full
> >>scale
> >>> mock ups or models of our equipment to be used in court 
> cases. I've
> >>heard
> >>> some of the craziest stories about law suits that can be 
> heard. It's 
> >>> a shame to say, but today, people will sue you at the 
> drop of a hat.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >
> >>> Will
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>Will,
> >>
> >>Since when do you need a PE license to be an electronic design
> >engineer?
> >>Only a handful of the design engineers that I have worked 
> with over the
> >
> >>years actually had a PE license.
> >>
> >>73, Mike W4EF........................................
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Amps mailing list
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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