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Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such

Subject: Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such
From: "Will Matney" <>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:47 -0400
List-post: <>
There's no way to tell when you leave [Amps] in the subject line. When you get 
individual mails back as I do, everyones e-mail address in in the From line, 
not from Amps. The only way to send one private is to remove the [Amps] from 
the subject or say private in the subject or in the mail itself.



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 6/27/06 at 1:40 PM Bolbach, Timothy wrote:

>I replied off-line, Will. I did that to spare the rest of the folks on
>the reflector. 
>Tim Bolbach PE
>Process Automation
>SSOE Inc 
>-----Original Message-----
>From: []
>On Behalf Of Will Matney
>Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:44 AM
>Subject: Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such
>Not under Kentucky law. If the PE does stamp the drawings, he must run
>the numbers also to determine if the design will work and be safe. He
>simply cant stamp the drawing not doing any calculations. That's also
>the same in West Virginia if a draftsman does the design and the
>engineer in charge approves it. Happens every day. If you didn't have
>this, an engineer would not be able to sub-contract draftsman firms if
>they did not do it themselves. I've personally seen some engineers that
>couldn't draw themselves out of a wet paper bag, and had to have the
>draftsman to do it. In each case with me, I tuned over the calculations
>and the engineer re-did and checked each. It's the same as
>sub-contracting an engineer in charge I would think. In other words, you
>don't have to have them in your employee.
>In Kentucky, I was told by the director, and is in the statute, that
>even though you have a 4 year degree in that field, you are still not
>allowed to call yourself an engineer without having been licensed. They
>consider it a crime if you do. That statute holds true here in Ohio as I
>read it, and I would say West Virginia, but haven't read it. I'm not
>sure what state you live in, but here it's way different according to
>what I've been told and personally read.
>No, the director made it plain that ANY design work in Kenticky was to
>be handled by an engineer and supposed to be a PE. If it were a home or
>building, then an architect handled it. I wish I had saved that e-mail
>as it opened my eyes to a lot. I asked the question point blank, "you
>mean that though I have my degree, I cant call my self an engineer"? His
>words were "no". The reason I asked was, I thought about moving back to
>Kentucky at the time. Your also not allowed to advertize or have the
>word engineer associated with your name. The way they see it is if
>anything could possibly cause harm or be unsafe, and is manufactured to
>be sold to the public, it has to be through a PE's approval. Like Bill
>said, they turn their head to a lot and don't investagate until someone
>makes a complaint.
>I agree that some of the best aren't licensed, but do work under a PE.
>That's the way I worked at two different jobs making mining machinery,
>trailers, and concrete forms. Everything I done went across the PE's
>desk. If there was a problem, I had to change it, but that never
>happened. If any stress or strain calcs were done, I actually did them
>and left them on the drawing in some cases. At my last job, I was over
>the mechanical, electrical, and hydraulics on a complete system/job.
>Plus was over the maintenance department as a boss. You talk about not
>having time to wind your watch, that was it.
>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>On 6/27/06 at 7:50 AM Bolbach, Timothy wrote:
>>      I beg to differ with you on several points.  But with lack of
>>I'll just name a few.
>>      First, you can NOT just have a PE sign drawings.  They must be
>>responsible charge" of the design:. Meaning, they did the calculations 
>>and were actively involved.
>>      Second, you do NOT have to be licensed to be called an engineer.
>>Industry standard is a 4 year qualified degree.  You may NOT advertise 
>>as a PE in a state you are not registered in, but you can advertise as 
>>an engineer.
>>      You may be confusing "power systems design" with "electronic
>>Two different worlds when it comes to PE.  The only time you need a PE 
>>for electronic equipment design is when attempting to get UL, CE or 
>>some other consumer related certification.  I don't know of many
>>(any) amplifiers with UL approval.  
>>      Some of the best system/equipment designs I have seen in the
>past 30 
>>years were by non-degreed designers.  My staff has 45 of them.
>>They work closely with the 20+ engineers running the projects.  
>>Just thought I'd mention it.    
>>Tim Bolbach PE (1983 OH)
>>Process Automation
>>SSOE Inc
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: []
>>On Behalf Of Will Matney
>>Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:47 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such
>>I was at the Kentucky licensure website several years back, and you
>>could download the whole state law on this. I did and read it through.
>>It said that if you designed any equipment for the public that was
>>electrical, you were supposed to carry a valid engineers license in
>>state. To be a PE there, you had to have a 4 year BSc degree in the
>>field, then work for two more years under a licensed PE as an EIT to be
>>allowed to take the test. If you then could pass the test, you were
>>granted your license. I then e-mailed the director about what I had
>>and asked what all was included under design. He wrote back and told me
>>it meant everything, and that designing anything without a license was
>>breaking the law. He also mentioned that even using the term engineer
>>with your name was considered illegal. I don't have the link to the
>>website, but you can look this all up there if they haven't changed it.
>>The director does answer the e-mails also.
>>Now the way a lot of companies get around this is hiring ones without a
>>license and placing them under a licensed engineer as a "designer" or
>>"draftsman". They'll have like a VP of Engineering who is licensed, and
>>will view over any drawing before they hit the shop, or any materials
>>purchased. That's the way I worked at both places as I never wanted to
>>get a license over law suits. Belive me, my boss was tied up in every
>>one they had and it was several at a time where it was mining related.
>>You have people out there who are just waiting to say they got hurt off
>>a piece of equipment to file a law suit. I helped bust one of these by
>>designing and building a full scale model of a drill arm with wood. The
>>guy suing was required to show how it happened in court, and his butt
>>couldn't hit the lever that he claimed caused his hand to be mashed.
>>man was found to have done this his self! After it got out, two other
>>employees stepped forward and verified what the guy done.
>>Another way around this if you own a business is to have an EE or ME
>>look at all the prints, ok the design, and stamp it. That relieves you
>>of any liability. I did this when I ran the shop I had as I was
>>equipment for the railroads and the coal mines. I had friends doing
>>both, and I paid them for their professional services.
>>I think the state licensure boards turn a blind eye to a lot unless
>>someone reports something or your a large corporation. Then, if they
>>you better have all your ducks in a row, or one could be looking at
>>fines and jail time. If you get a chance, drop by that website, or
>>e-mail the director. He can enlighten you more really than the law that
>>is written as he knows how the courts interpret it.
>>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>On 6/26/06 at 3:44 PM Michael Tope wrote:
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Will Matney" <>
>>>> Gary,
>>>> You would think being sued is the worst part. What if a disgruntled 
>>>> customer reported you to the state license board? You would then
>>>> a review about your engineering license. Here, they beileve the 
>>>> reporter more, and your guilty to them having to prove yourself 
>>>> innocent. If they pull your license, you can no longer be an 
>>>> engineer. If one even says
>>>> you can do this over a limit, and they see this, you could sure
>>>> slip of paper and your stamp. According to how bad it is, or what
>>>> reporter said to them, it could be a temporary suspension all the
>>>> to
>>>> permenant. It's according to what you can prove. Then, I guess one 
>>>> could find a job as a draftsman or in sales. It's worse today too. 
>>>> People have gotten law suit crazy, and attorneys don't hold no 
>>>> punches back if they think there's extra money they can collect.
>>>> if you fight all this succesfully, how much out of pocket expense
>>>> it cost you? Even though things can be done over the limit, I will 
>>>> har dly ever tell someone to do something other than published
>>>> Heck, if you tell someone to build something some way, and it
>>>> out, you can be in trouble for doing engineering without a license! 
>>>> That is if someone is mad enough to report you. Another thing is if 
>>>> you've designed something to be used by another manufacturer. They 
>>>> will sue for down time if your product caused it. That can run into
>>tons of money.
>>>> reason I know about this is I used to have to design and build full
>>>> mock ups or models of our equipment to be used in court cases. I've
>>>> some of the craziest stories about law suits that can be heard. It's
>>>> a shame to say, but today, people will sue you at the drop of a hat.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Will
>>>Since when do you need a PE license to be an electronic design
>>>Only a handful of the design engineers that I have worked with over
>>>years actually had a PE license.
>>>73, Mike W4EF........................................
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