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Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such

Subject: Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such
From: "Will Matney" <>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:56:53 -0400
List-post: <>
I agree, and have heard the same thing about this now in federal court. I would 
not have responded at all except to let folks know what I was told and have 
read about the law so they don't get in trouble over it.



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 6/27/06 at 12:59 PM Administrator wrote:

>This is not the place to debate state licensing laws or their 
>application to business.  You are treading on areas that have 
>been the subject of arguments between licensed Engineers (mostly 
>Civil Engineers) and other businesses (the broadcast industry, 
>Society of Broadcast Engineers, the railroads, the locomotive 
>engineers' union, and many other high tech industries in which 
>the title "Engineer" has been commonly used) for many years.  
>There are cases currently making their way through the federal 
>court system concerning the right of states (interstate commerce 
>clause) to regulate the user of the term engineer and to attach  
>state specific legal liabilities to the use of the title.  
>The Amps reflector is not the place to even nibble at the edges 
>of that debate.  Please let this branch of the thread die.  
>   ... Administrator 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 
>> [] On Behalf Of Will Matney
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:44 AM
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such
>> Timothy,
>> Not under Kentucky law. If the PE does stamp the drawings, he 
>> must run the numbers also to determine if the design will 
>> work and be safe. He simply cant stamp the drawing not doing 
>> any calculations. That's also the same in West Virginia if a 
>> draftsman does the design and the engineer in charge approves 
>> it. Happens every day. If you didn't have this, an engineer 
>> would not be able to sub-contract draftsman firms if they did 
>> not do it themselves. I've personally seen some engineers 
>> that couldn't draw themselves out of a wet paper bag, and had 
>> to have the draftsman to do it. In each case with me, I tuned 
>> over the calculations and the engineer re-did and checked 
>> each. It's the same as sub-contracting an engineer in charge 
>> I would think. In other words, you don't have to have them in 
>> your employee.
>> In Kentucky, I was told by the director, and is in the 
>> statute, that even though you have a 4 year degree in that 
>> field, you are still not allowed to call yourself an engineer 
>> without having been licensed. They consider it a crime if you 
>> do. That statute holds true here in Ohio as I read it, and I 
>> would say West Virginia, but haven't read it. I'm not sure 
>> what state you live in, but here it's way different according 
>> to what I've been told and personally read.
>> No, the director made it plain that ANY design work in 
>> Kenticky was to be handled by an engineer and supposed to be 
>> a PE. If it were a home or building, then an architect 
>> handled it. I wish I had saved that e-mail as it opened my 
>> eyes to a lot. I asked the question point blank, "you mean 
>> that though I have my degree, I cant call my self an 
>> engineer"? His words were "no". The reason I asked was, I 
>> thought about moving back to Kentucky at the time. Your also 
>> not allowed to advertize or have the word engineer associated 
>> with your name. The way they see it is if anything could 
>> possibly cause harm or be unsafe, and is manufactured to be 
>> sold to the public, it has to be through a PE's approval. 
>> Like Bill said, they turn their head to a lot and don't 
>> investagate until someone makes a complaint.
>> I agree that some of the best aren't licensed, but do work 
>> under a PE. That's the way I worked at two different jobs 
>> making mining machinery, trailers, and concrete forms. 
>> Everything I done went across the PE's desk. If there was a 
>> problem, I had to change it, but that never happened. If any 
>> stress or strain calcs were done, I actually did them and 
>> left them on the drawing in some cases. At my last job, I was 
>> over the mechanical, electrical, and hydraulics on a complete 
>> system/job. Plus was over the maintenance department as a 
>> boss. You talk about not having time to wind your watch, that was it.
>> Best,
>> Will
>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>> On 6/27/06 at 7:50 AM Bolbach, Timothy wrote:
>> >Will,   
>> >    I beg to differ with you on several points.  But with lack of
>> >time I'll just name a few.  
>> >
>> >    First, you can NOT just have a PE sign drawings.  They must be
>> >"in responsible charge" of the design:. Meaning, they did the
>> >calculations and were actively involved.  
>> >
>> >    Second, you do NOT have to be licensed to be called an engineer.
>> >Industry standard is a 4 year qualified degree.  You may NOT 
>> advertise
>> >as a PE in a state you are not registered in, but you can 
>> advertise as
>> >an engineer.
>> >
>> >    You may be confusing "power systems design" with "electronic
>> >design".  Two different worlds when it comes to PE.  The 
>> only time you
>> >need a PE for electronic equipment design is when attempting 
>> to get UL,
>> >CE or some other consumer related certification.  I don't 
>> know of many
>> >(any) amplifiers with UL approval.  
>> >
>> >    Some of the best system/equipment designs I have seen in the
>> >past 30 years were by non-degreed designers.  My staff has 
>> 45 of them.
>> >They work closely with the 20+ engineers running the projects.  
>> >
>> >Just thought I'd mention it.    
>> >
>> >      
>> >
>> >
>> >KD8CN
>> >
>> >Tim Bolbach PE (1983 OH)
>> >Manager 
>> >Process Automation
>> >SSOE Inc 
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: 
>> []
>> >On Behalf Of Will Matney
>> >Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:47 PM
>> >To:
>> >Subject: Re: [Amps] IM distortion and such
>> >
>> >Mike,
>> >
>> >I was at the Kentucky licensure website several years back, and you
>> >could download the whole state law on this. I did and read 
>> it through.
>> >It said that if you designed any equipment for the public that was
>> >electrical, you were supposed to carry a valid engineers 
>> license in that
>> >state. To be a PE there, you had to have a 4 year BSc degree in the
>> >field, then work for two more years under a licensed PE as 
>> an EIT to be
>> >allowed to take the test. If you then could pass the test, you were
>> >granted your license. I then e-mailed the director about 
>> what I had read
>> >and asked what all was included under design. He wrote back 
>> and told me
>> >it meant everything, and that designing anything without a 
>> license was
>> >breaking the law. He also mentioned that even using the term engineer
>> >with your name was considered illegal. I don't have the link to the
>> >website, but you can look this all up there if they haven't 
>> changed it.
>> >The director does answer the e-mails also.
>> >
>> >Now the way a lot of companies get around this is hiring 
>> ones without a
>> >license and placing them under a licensed engineer as a "designer" or
>> >"draftsman". They'll have like a VP of Engineering who is 
>> licensed, and
>> >will view over any drawing before they hit the shop, or any materials
>> >purchased. That's the way I worked at both places as I never 
>> wanted to
>> >get a license over law suits. Belive me, my boss was tied up in every
>> >one they had and it was several at a time where it was 
>> mining related.
>> >You have people out there who are just waiting to say they 
>> got hurt off
>> >a piece of equipment to file a law suit. I helped bust one 
>> of these by
>> >designing and building a full scale model of a drill arm 
>> with wood. The
>> >guy suing was required to show how it happened in court, and his butt
>> >couldn't hit the lever that he claimed caused his hand to be 
>> mashed. The
>> >man was found to have done this his self! After it got out, two other
>> >employees stepped forward and verified what the guy done.
>> >
>> >Another way around this if you own a business is to have an EE or ME
>> >look at all the prints, ok the design, and stamp it. That 
>> relieves you
>> >of any liability. I did this when I ran the shop I had as I 
>> was building
>> >equipment for the railroads and the coal mines. I had friends doing
>> >both, and I paid them for their professional services.
>> >
>> >I think the state licensure boards turn a blind eye to a lot unless
>> >someone reports something or your a large corporation. Then, 
>> if they do,
>> >you better have all your ducks in a row, or one could be 
>> looking at both
>> >fines and jail time. If you get a chance, drop by that website, or
>> >e-mail the director. He can enlighten you more really than 
>> the law that
>> >is written as he knows how the courts interpret it.
>> >
>> >Best,
>> >
>> >Will
>> >
>> >
>> >*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>> >
>> >On 6/26/06 at 3:44 PM Michael Tope wrote:
>> >
>> >>----- Original Message -----
>> >>From: "Will Matney" <>
>> >>
>> >>> Gary,
>> >>>
>> >>> You would think being sued is the worst part. What if a 
>> disgruntled 
>> >>> customer reported you to the state license board? You 
>> would then have
>> >
>> >>> a review about your engineering license. Here, they beileve the 
>> >>> reporter more, and your guilty to them having to prove yourself 
>> >>> innocent. If they pull your license, you can no longer be an 
>> >>> engineer. If one even says
>> >>that
>> >>> you can do this over a limit, and they see this, you 
>> could sure loose
>> >>that
>> >>> slip of paper and your stamp. According to how bad it is, 
>> or what all
>> >>the
>> >>> reporter said to them, it could be a temporary suspension 
>> all the way
>> >
>> >>> to
>> >>a
>> >>> permenant. It's according to what you can prove. Then, I 
>> guess one 
>> >>> could find a job as a draftsman or in sales. It's worse 
>> today too. 
>> >>> People have gotten law suit crazy, and attorneys don't hold no 
>> >>> punches back if they think there's extra money they can 
>> collect. Even
>> >
>> >>> if you fight all this succesfully, how much out of pocket 
>> expense did
>> >
>> >>> it cost you? Even though things can be done over the 
>> limit, I will 
>> >>> har dly ever tell someone to do something other than published
>> >standards.
>> >>> Heck, if you tell someone to build something some way, 
>> and it doesn't
>> >>work
>> >>> out, you can be in trouble for doing engineering without 
>> a license! 
>> >>> That is if someone is mad enough to report you. Another 
>> thing is if 
>> >>> you've designed something to be used by another 
>> manufacturer. They 
>> >>> will sue for down time if your product caused it. That 
>> can run into
>> >tons of money.
>> >>The
>> >>> reason I know about this is I used to have to design and 
>> build full
>> >>scale
>> >>> mock ups or models of our equipment to be used in court 
>> cases. I've
>> >>heard
>> >>> some of the craziest stories about law suits that can be 
>> heard. It's 
>> >>> a shame to say, but today, people will sue you at the 
>> drop of a hat.
>> >>>
>> >>> Best,
>> >>>
>> >
>> >>> Will
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>Will,
>> >>
>> >>Since when do you need a PE license to be an electronic design
>> >engineer?
>> >>Only a handful of the design engineers that I have worked 
>> with over the
>> >
>> >>years actually had a PE license.
>> >>
>> >>73, Mike W4EF........................................
>> >>
>> >>
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