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Re: [CQ-Contest] Contesting and the FT8 Revolution

To: wa1fcn <wa1fcn@charter.net>, Stanley Zawrotny <k4sbz.stan@gmail.com>, ktfrog007@aol.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Contesting and the FT8 Revolution
From: "chuck.gooden" <chuck.gooden@comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 20:38:28 -0500
List-post: <mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com>
In a few years when solar conditions improve and the higher band's become 
active again a lot of hams will switch to CW and SSB.  FT8 fade away for a 
period until the next solar low point.Chuck K9LC
-------- Original message --------From: wa1fcn <wa1fcn@charter.net> Date: 
6/20/21  7:52 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Stanley Zawrotny <k4sbz.stan@gmail.com>, 
ktfrog007@aol.com Cc: CQ-Contest@contesting.com Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] 
Contesting and the FT8 Revolution              GE Stan                 Well 
some would say " the Genie (FT8) is out of the bottle "   You know what that 
means.....                         And this will never pass.  I can't help but 
wonder  do you feel DXCC is in great shape                 and still holds the 
respected position it once held?   Be honest ask your friends/club members      
               find out their present views.                         BoB 
WA1FCNOn 6/20/2021 12:20 PM, Stanley Zawrotny wrote:> You are right, Ken. It 
seems like every few years some comes out with something to ruin DXCC and 
amateur radio in general - SSB, RTTY, no code, RBNs, SDR, FT8, to name a few. 
People blame the newest thing that they don’t like and/or don’t fully 
understand for ruining our hobby. Yet the hobby goes on, getting stronger and 
more diverse all the time.>> This too shall pass (when something newer makes 
the hate list).>> STAN, K4SBZ> "Real radio bounces off the sky.">>> On Jun 20, 
2021, at 1:00 PM, AB1J via CQ-Contest <cq-contest@contesting.com> wrote:>>>> 
Hi Bob,>> You wrote:  The ARRL has destroyed the value of DXCC.>> 
===========================================>>>>>> The ARRL hasn't done 
anything.  Technological change has.>> The DX clusters and RBN destroyed the 
value of DXCC.  That happened quite a while back.  Long before FT8 came 
along.>>>> DXers used to be admired for their skills, knowledge and 
perseverance.  They used to operate by their wits.  No longer.  That's what 
ruined DXCC.>>>> Name me a DXer you admire who has started from scratch 15 
years ago and has over 300 Current confirmed and hasn't used the clusters or 
RBN..>>>>>> 73,>> Ken, AB1J>>>>>> -----Original Message----->> From: wa1fcn 
<wa1fcn@charter.net>>> To: cq-contest@contesting.com>> Sent: Sun, Jun 20, 2021 
12:46 am>> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Contesting and the FT8 Revolution>>>>>>    
  GE Kostas>>>>          I just wanted you to know you are not the only one to 
feel bad>> about DXCC.>>>>              In the past couple years a few people 
have E-Mailed me>> about their feelings>>>>               in regards to DXCC.   
The ARRL has destroyed the value of>> DXCC.  It has taken>>>>              me a 
lifetime (over 50years) to achieve DXCC of 285 on 40>> meters low power.>>>>    
          They should of separated FT8/FT4 from all other modes in>> Single 
band DXCC.>>>>              DX with FT8 is fishing in a barrel. Can you imagine 
the>> DXCC totals on 12 and 10>>>>              meters when the Sunspot cycle 
improves!  Where is the>> challenge now?!  There>>>>              is none!  I 
can go on to other FT8 minuses like how it>> destroyed RTTY, how it has>>>>     
         made some hams lazy and see no need to put any effort into>> becoming 
a more>>>>              proficient operator in other modes.>>>>                 
 Ok Kostas I will stop now as I am sure I offended>> enough hams already.>>>>   
                               73   BoB WA1FCN>>>>>>> On 6/19/2021 2:46 PM, 
Kostas SV1DPI wrote:>>> Maybe you have right. But I don't feel the same.>>>>>> 
** The small pistol station revolution>>>>>> Having 1 kw and a 2el quad @10m 
high, I don't feel a big gun. I had>>> the chance to be competitive in dxing 
because I devoted many hours>>> studying propagation and even more time on the 
radio. Now there is no>>> chance for me to make something that others do not. 
They let their>>> computer and play 24 hours per day with better antennas and 
more>>> power.... So yes small pistols have the chance to work something 
they>>> had not but not to be competitive...>>>>>> ** The station optimization 
revolution>>>>>> I have at least one friend who has a long wire and have worked 
290>>> countries the last 3 years, of course in ft8, including pacific, etc.>>> 
So why to make his station better? I remember that I put my quad>>> higher when 
I lost a dxpedition, I bought an amplifier the next time,>>> etc... Now there 
is no chance to loose a dxpedition especially because>>> almost every 
dxpedition (let me know it - don't forget that the first>>> ft8 robot was Greek 
and I know some of the guys bought it) uses more>>> than one robots running ft8 
all day. And they have not the courage to>>> say it...>>>>>> ** The now-casting 
propagation revolution>>> In SZ1A we have a skimmer (maybe you know it even it 
is out of order>>> the last 3 weeks - we have ordered the damaged parts). We 
use the>>> results of the skimmer to make our plans in contests. The first 
time>>> we were keeping ft8 qsos as the CW qsos also. This had as a result 
to>>> drive us to mistakes in real contesting. While the band seemed to be>>> 
open the previous days during specific time, it wasn't finally during>>> the 
contest. So we stopped using the FT8 spots and now we keep only>>> the CW qsos 
to make our plans.>>>>>> ** The marginal bands revolution>>>>>> Yes, ft8 helps 
a weaker station to have a QSO (I don't think "to be>>> heard" is the right 
expression). I am not a 6m fun but I managed to>>> work 125 entities the last 
15 years. Also optimization of antennas,>>> radios, amplifiers, etc, all these 
years. Someone using ft8, has>>> worked these entities the last 2 years in the 
lower point of solar>>> cycle using the half length of my boom. But what he 
will do the next>>> years... What he will work in high part of solar cycle? And 
why he>>> needs to wait for it? Probably he will play cards because I don't>>> 
think he will stay in ham radio... If you don't need to improve the>>> station, 
the antennas, to study and learn propagation, to learn more,>>> to increase 
your knowledge, etc... what will be the interesting part>>> to keep you in ham 
radio? I already know someone who stopped to play>>> radio, never installed his 
new hexbeam, because he worked WAS on 40m>>> in a week with a long wire (WAS is 
far more difficult from DXCC from>>> Greece), letting his computer to play ever 
night. Plus another one who>>> had dxcc with all entities in ft8 but he didn't 
know the QSO procedure!>>>>>>>>> In conclusion, I don't care what the others 
do. I mentioned about>>> others just to show the results. I have not fun with 
ft8 and this is>>> why I don't use it. If you are pleasant with it, do it. I 
don't care.>>> I lost my interest for DXing.>>> I can not understand how 
someone has fun with ft8 in contesting.>>> Because the rhythm? Because the nice 
sound? Because of the pileup? Or>>> because he has the time to go to the toilet 
while his computer makes>>> some QSOs...>>>>>> By the way I am a digital guy! I 
gave many new ones to west coast guys>>> on RTTY from Iran (EP6T) and I have 
329 entities on RTTY. I have tried>>> ft8 and I didn't like it. I abandoned 
dxcc program while I was HR1, HR>>> on SSB and CW and had over 2850 entities in 
challenge because of Ft8>>> acceptance by ARRL. I am crying over the money I 
gave to ARRL. After>>> 25 years in ham radio I continue to play chasing fun in 
CW/SSB/RTTY>>> contesting (mainly casual but more serious also sometimes) and I 
don't>>> think ft8 could be part of my contesting habits.>>>>>> 73 Kostas 
SV1DPI>>>>>>>>> Στις 19/6/2021 18:24, ο/η José Nunes CT1BOH έγραψε:>>>> There 
is a revolution going on – The FT8 revolution! Like other>>>> revolutions, it 
is a breakthrough and there is no coming back. But>>>> unlike>>>> what many 
think, FT8 mode is fantastic for amateur radio and of>>>> course for>>>> 
contesting.>>>>>>>>>>>> There are several things I can particularly 
note:>>>>>>>>>>>> ** The spotting revolution>>>>>>>>    Because of the default 
reporting option of FT8 applications, every>>>> station>>>> that uses JTDX/WSJT 
applications is constantly spotting all the stations>>>> that the decoders 
hear. Every station becomes a spotting machine of the>>>> bands (just like a 
skimmer) while they are on. The result?! 20.8 billion>>>> FT8 spots in 4 
years.>>>>>>>>>>>> ** The small pistol station revolution>>>>>>>> Considering a 
2500 Hz bandwidth and weak-signal/Noise Ratio, SSB can>>>> go as>>>> low as +10 
dB, CW -15 db and FT8 -21dB. To put it in another way, since>>>> doubling power 
results in 3 dB increase in SNR, a 31db difference>>>> means 1W>>>> in FT8 
versus 1024 watts in SSB.>>>>>>>> A modest station, suddenly, feels like a new 
world of propagation has>>>> opened to him and this in return brings more and 
more people to the>>>> bands>>>> because of the fun of working stations and 
paths not before available.>>>> There is a virtuous cycle – more spots, more 
people, more activity, more>>>> spots, more people, more activity, 
…>>>>>>>>>>>> ** The now-casting propagation revolution>>>>>>>> With such a 
huge volume of spots, 20.8 billion in 4 years and around 22>>>> million spots 
per day [just for your reference last CQWW CW generated>>>> 6.5M>>>> spots], 
propagation prediction is turning into now-casting propagation.>>>> There is no 
need for propagation prediction anymore because, knowing the>>>> propagation 
pattern from 20 billion spots and getting real>>>> propagation from>>>> the 22 
million spots per day, real time conditions come from now-casting>>>> 
propagation - any circuit can be determined to be open or close.>>>>>>>> You 
can watch my 2021 Contest University presentation about this subject>>>> here 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-esob7BPtc&t=20340s and/or get the>>>> slides 
of the presentation slides here>>>> 
https://www.contestuniversity.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/There-is-Nothing-Magic-About-Propagation-CTU-2021-CT1BOH.pdf>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 ** The station optimization revolution>>>>>>>> This is perhaps one of the most 
overlooked aspects of FT8 and of great>>>> interest to contest stations. 
Because of the spotting revolution and>>>> because every FT8 station uses exact 
grid locator, the exact path of the>>>> circuits can be drawn. A contest 
station that uses a simple FT8>>>> skimmer can>>>> monitor, 24x7, the potential 
of any antenna set-up, compare different>>>> antennas configuration (A/B 
testing using different calls), test antenna>>>> take-off angles, and adjust 
this information to available propagation at>>>> any time, before or during a 
contest. “22 million spots per day” are>>>> there>>>> available to test your 
station. I believe every station, DX or>>>> Contest,  should>>>> use a FT8 
Skimmer, like the stand alone Red Pitaya>>>> https://www.redpitaya.com/ to skim 
several bands at the same time at>>>> a very>>>> low cost, provide now-casting 
information, check antenna and location>>>> potential and use that for station 
optimization. This link takes you>>>> to a>>>> visualization of my modest small 
pistol station (just a simple long>>>> wire)>>>> potential on all the bands  
https://tinyurl.com/e6767we8 in the last 24>>>> hours.>>>>>>>>>>>> ** The 
marginal bands revolution>>>>>>>> With FT8, marginal bands like 160, 10 and 6 
meters become alive like no>>>> other. Going deeper into the SNR, “opens” new 
circuits, brings more>>>> activity, confirms these circuits were always there. 
We are working>>>> Japan>>>> on 6 meters on a daily basis... Also, there is a 
move from CW into>>>> FT8 on>>>> these band. This is a side effect, but it is 
what it is. If people>>>> suddenly>>>> find a band open at -21dB that before 
was close at -15dB, of course they>>>> will use the mode that enables those 
QSOs and will not use the other>>>> mode>>>> anymore.>>>>>>>> In any case 
competitive contesting (SSB and CW) has a lot to gain>>>> form this>>>> 
revolution. Exciting times indeed>>>>>>>> 73 José Nunes>>>> CONTEST CT1BOH - 
http://www.qsl.net/ct1boh>>>> 
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